FASTIDIOUS

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FASTIDIOUS

Postby Dr. Goodword » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:14 pm

• fastidious •

Pronunciation: fês-ti-di-ês • Hear it!

Part of Speech: Adjective

Meaning: You don't have to be fast to be fastidious. Today's Good Word means: 1. Easily disgusted, squeamish, hypersensitive to imperfection in matters of taste and cleanliness. 2. (Microbiology) Complicated in feeding and nutritional needs.

Notes: Fastidious, meticulous, and punctilious are near synonyms but careful speakers and writers distinguish them in use. Meticulous implies a general hypersensitive attention to details, as a meticulous accountant who checks and rechecks all his figures. Punctilious most often refers to hypersensitive attention to rules of conduct, as a chairman who is punctilious in his observance of Robert's Rules of Order. Our word, fastidious, more generally applies to matters of taste and cleanliness and implies squeamishness to imperfection, as someone might keep a fastidious home or dress fastidiously. The adverb is fastidiously and the noun is fastidiousness. If you want to have some fun, you might try fastidiosity; you won't be the first.

In Play: It is always safe to express attention to detail in matters of propriety and cleanliness with today's Good Word: "Barbie Dahl always set a fastidious table, with expensive settings on a spotless white tablecloth." As with all words, though, broadening the meaning of this word is where the fun lies: "William Arami fastidiously ogled the bridesmaids in hopes of finding a hint of the woman he himself might marry."

Word History: In Middle English today's Good Word meant "squeamish, haughty", a meaning close to the original Latin adjective fastidiosus which came from fastidium "nausea, squeamishness, loathing". This noun would seem to be based on fastus "pride, arrogance" + taedium "weariness", the source of English tedium and, ultimately, tedious. Neither of the roots of these two words appears in other Indo-European languages, which leaves a material curtain of mystery around both. (Today we thank Loren Baldwin, whose fastidious taste in words led to the suggestion that we run this one as today's Good Word.)
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Re: FASTIDIOUS

Postby Stargzer » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:41 pm

• fastidious •

Pronunciation: fês-ti-di-ês • Hear it! ...

Part of Speech: Adjective

Meaning: You don't have to be fast to be fastidious. Today's Good Word means: 1. Easily disgusted, squeamish, hypersensitive to imperfection in matters of taste and cleanliness. 2. (Microbiology) Complicated in feeding and nutritional needs. ...
Then I am definitely slowidious ...
Regards//Larry

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Re: FASTIDIOUS

Postby gailr » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:49 pm

1. Easily disgusted, squeamish, hypersensitive to imperfection in matters of taste and cleanliness. 2. (Microbiology) Complicated in feeding and nutritional needs. ...
Then I am definitely slowidious ...
Incentive to fast completely.

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FASTIDIOUS

Postby Jeff hook » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:12 am

(It looks like I should apologize for my lack of wit !)

I think we can often improve our use of English when we learn about the meanings of the origins of our words but this case surprises me. The meaning of the Latin root seems to be clear, and the current scientific use of the term seems to be consistent with that original meaning, but I don't think we use the word that way commonly now, and I wonder if our current word, which is almost identical to the Latin adjective, can be regarded as having separated from its Latin root. Is that ever possible? If it's possible, should it be resisted? Has it occurred in this case, and could it be resisted here?

The Latin root seems clearly to have been "negative" and our current use is clearly "positive." (I don't even know if I'm using the term "root" correctly. I assume the term "stem" might also be used by linguists as a "botanical metaphor," but I don't know if it is, let alone what usage is correct.) Our current use of this adjective suggests admirable characteristics, such as "conscientiousness," "attention to detail," "discharge of obligations," "neatness," "cleanliness," "assumption of responsibility," etc. but the form of the word is clearly "Latinate" and it might be appropriate to take this one example as a demonstration of the consequences of using a word which is derived from Latin *without* knowing the meaning of the original Latin.

I guess it must be said that we're using "fastidious" incorrectly, and *ignorantly* ! I never knew the meaning of the Latin root until now. At the least, this information about the meaning of the Latin "root" is a revelation. I wonder what other readers think about such cases. I don't think it's appropriate to dismiss such concerns by asserting that "We're speaking English! We're not speaking Latin!" I don't only think we gain insight from studies of the sources of our current words, I think we *lose* when our current use diverges so far from the original, but this may be "harmless," and current English may include many examples of this divergence.

Jeff Hook
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Postby Perry » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:37 am

Our word, fastidious, more generally applies to matters of taste and cleanliness and implies squeamishness to imperfection, as someone might keep a fastidious home or dress fastidiously.
Our use of the word doesn't seem so far from the Latin, as it is described here.
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re: FASTIDIOUS

Postby Jeff hook » Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:33 pm

I don't think our current usage suggests that "fastidiousness" is motivated by "squeamishness." I don't think we regard "fastidiousness" as compulsive, or maniacal, or excessive, or neurotic. Wouldn't we use one of those words, or others, if we wanted to communicate that kind of assessment of someone's attention to detail? We could also describe such behavior as "fussy." I certainly think we regard fastidiousness as admirable, or at least as "positive," overall, rather than as "negative."

I'm sure Dr. Beard is "right on target" when he reports that "nausea, squeamishness, loathing" were associated with the use of the original Latin noun, "fastidium." Those qualities aren't usually associated with our use of "fastidious," are they? He also said, speaking of "fastidium," "This noun would seem to be based on fastus 'pride, arrogance' + taedium 'weariness', the source of English 'tedium' and, ultimately, 'tedious'." Those are all "strongly negative" words, aren't they? I do think Dr. Beard's explanation of the etymology suggests the original Latin use of "fastidiosus" was different from our use of "fastidious."

I wondered about our "tidy," which I thought might be a "cheerful" "minimization" of "fastidious," so I checked the 4th Edition of the AHD on-line, at:

http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/T0207400.html

and I found this:

…ETYMOLOGY: Middle English tidi, in season, healthy, from tide, time. See tide…

The reference to "tide" was to:

http://www.bartleby.com/61/65/T0206500.html

where this traditional English meaning was found:

4. A time or season. Often used in combination: eventide; Christmastide; Shrovetide.

and that page referred to the dictionary's Indo-European Roots Appendix, at:

http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE71.html

where the PIE root was said to be "da," (meaning to divide) which was the source of the Greek "demos," for example. So "tidy" doesn't seem to be a "minimization" of "fastidious."

Even if you think our current use of "fastidious" hasn't diverged from the apparent original use of the Latin "fastidiosus" do you think *all* of our current uses of words which we derived from Latin remain faithful to their original Latin uses? Does anyone see such a divergence as objectionable?

Jeff Hook
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Re: re: FASTIDIOUS

Postby skinem » Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:25 pm

Even if you think our current use of "fastidious" hasn't diverged from the apparent original use of the Latin "fastidiosus" do you think *all* of our current uses of words which we derived from Latin remain faithful to their original Latin uses? Does anyone see such a divergence as objectionable?

Jeff Hook
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I don't believe that *all* of our current uses of words have stayed true to their original meanings regardless of where they originated. To me, one of the wonderful aspect of words is their fluidity of meaning. What often surprises me is how quickly some words meanings can change in day-to-day accepted usage.

By the way, when I think of fastidious, I think of Felix Unger...

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FASTIDIOUS

Postby Jeff hook » Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:38 pm

I'm beginning to suspect I may have been misusing "fastidious." It may have a "negative" connotation for most users.

Jeff Hook
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Postby Bailey » Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:22 pm

Jeff, your very concise posting was fastidious in explanation. I think fastidious can be used of a very careful person, not all who are fastidious are Alpha Hotels.

Fastidious exactly fits the OCD person, fusty too. Like herding cats our words are outta-control.
btw I like to juggle kittenstoo, while it is not usually harmful for the critters they'd prefer I didn't, I think.

mark egregious Bailey

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Postby gailr » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:03 pm

I don't find it unusual that words drift away from their original meanings over centuries; the exchange of ideas, especially during interactions with other cultures, is always injecting languages with new words and even new concepts requiring more new words.

Moreover, there is a socio-political function of language to alternatively include and exclude, explain and obscure, which makes such a shift inevitable.

Prior to the 14c, devout European Christians could use silly and rude to romanticize the creche without intending or giving any offense.

If you presented yourself to an abbey as starving, a caring monk might have offered you a blanket rather than a trencher of soup. Had they put you up for the night, you would have been appalled at an offer of luxurious accommodations. The hospitable monks would have been offended at the suggestion that they were being nice [and if you follow that link, you'll find a shout-out to our old friend fastidious].

Sadly, chocolate wasn't on the medieval menu, but it might have sounded like poison to their ears. Poison derives from the Latin for a drink. Whatever he drank at meat, Lancelot is remembered as the greatest knight of all, no claim to fame during part of that word's usage.

In my paternal great grandfather's day, both boys and girls were initially dressed alike, at least until those very young boys could kick up a fuss about it.

I live in 'the land of the free and the home of the brave,' terms which have meant quite different things to quite different people, both then and now.

I'll sign off with my screen name. A nickname is derived from an increase, even though it's intended to be short [maimed?] and sweet.

-gailr

After compiling this post, I need to put some distance between etymonline and me and rest. And no, Jeff, I don't find any of this objectionable. :)

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FASTIDIOUS

Postby Jeff hook » Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:38 pm

Wow! Thanks, Gail, for contributing such a "text-link tour de force." I admired your interesting comments in the Etymology forum thread

Lucifer and Lucid are cognates

at:

http://www.alphadictionary.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=2405

so I'm delighted to see that you're a participant here.

Most of you folks may be linguists or academics of related types, so I'm sure I'm very much "out of my water" in this forum, as a mere "civilian." All of you seem to appreciate the insights which can be found in the study of original meanings, whether or not those meanings are consistent with current usage. I suspect you, "skinem," and Mark all *delight* in the protean nature of language, which tends to *worry* me. I guess I should focus more on simply reading etymologies and less on "divergence."

You cited the "socio-political function of language." I assume you included the etymology of "knight" because of the irony of its original meaning, which seems to have emphasized subservience and *lack* of status, rather than power and *elevated* social status. However, don't you agree that the change which you're pointing out is less a change of that word's meaning than of the social context in which the word was used? Doesn't it seem likely that the meaning of "knight" changed when the feudal system of vassalage grew up around it? Also, wasn't a knight's social status always only relative? His status was lofty relative to a peasant's, but he was always subordinate to his "liege lord."

I imagine, as you suggested, that many more processes may explain the changes which we see in the meaning of words over time. I also suspect (extrapolating from my own possible misjudgment of the current use of "fastidious") that it must be difficult to collect meaningful, "objective" information about the use of any given word at any time. So many variables must be involved. Maybe it's less useful to generalize about usage than simply to state and to explain all known usages, attributing each to its own geographic area or "demographic sub-set," or whatever.

I'm curious to know if you think our current use of "fastidious" is still consistent with the apparent use of the Latin adjective, "fastidious." (No rush on your reply! Please get your well-earned rest first ! )

Jeff Hook
NJ, USA

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Postby Perry » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:31 am

Most of you folks may be linguists or academics of related types, so I'm sure I'm very much "out of my water" in this forum, as a mere "civilian."
I know that for some people leaping to conclusions constitutes a favorite sport, but you have the wrong end of the stick here Jeff. The vast majority of us are "jes' folks" who share an enjoyment of words, language, and the chance to have fun with them both. (There are a few ringers however, with more formal credentials. But even our academics are known to get boisterous.)
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Postby gailr » Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:54 pm

What Perry said. :)
The ivory towers here are few and far between, I'm afraid.


To answer your question, Jeff, I agree with skinem:
By the way, when I think of fastidious, I think of Felix Unger...
I don't think it's strayed as far from its origins as many other words in common usage.

You alluded to my comments re 'Lucifer'. The joke was that rigid focus on―and attachment to―one arbitrary meaning for a word*, ignoring all the other legitimate meanings, makes for a joyless conversation. Your wondering whether 'tidy' was related to 'fastidious' and learning about the PIE roots for each is kinda what we do here, so unlax.

-gailr

*or a symbol, or any other expression of abstract ideas...

[edit] ps: Thanks for using protean in your reply. [/edit]


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