solipsistic

Use this forum to discuss past Good Words.
sardith
Lexiterian
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:21 am
Location: Central California

solipsistic

Postby sardith » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:35 pm

I have recently finished the book, "Bonhoeffer" by Eric Metaxas, and encountered the word 'solipsistic' in a way that seemed out of bounds to me. Metaxas' hypothesis is that Bonhoeffer is solipsistic, (meaning more the alone part of the definition than the egotistical part), due to the extreme life circumstances he endures; that he almost cannot help but be absorbed in self-thought.

Is that within the scope of the definition of this word?

If my question is unclear, I guess I could put it this way, "Can one be solipsistic, absorbed with thoughts of self, without being egotistical?"

I'd appreciate any input.

Thanks,
Sardith :)
p.s. Btw, this is a great read. I recommend it highly, though it is long and full of historical background. Not a light read.

User avatar
Slava
Great Grand Panjandrum
Posts: 8107
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:31 am
Location: Finger Lakes, NY

Re: solipsistic

Postby Slava » Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:24 pm

If my question is unclear, I guess I could put it this way, "Can one be solipsistic, absorbed with thoughts of self, without being egotistical?"
Solipsism isn't necessarily absorption with oneself. It's the belief that you are the only consciousness, and that everything about you is a construct of your consciousness. You don't have to be egotistical at all. You could very well hate yourself, and that's pretty much the opposite of egotism.
Life is like playing chess with chessmen who each have thoughts and feelings and motives of their own.

sardith
Lexiterian
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:21 am
Location: Central California

solipsistic

Postby sardith » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:05 am

Slava,

When you replied, "It's the belief that you are the only consciousness, and that everything about you is a construct of your consciousness," that kind of 'threw me for a loop'.

Could you give me an example of that kind of solipsistic thinking, please, so that I can get a handle on it?

I'd appreciate it,
Sardith :)

User avatar
Slava
Great Grand Panjandrum
Posts: 8107
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:31 am
Location: Finger Lakes, NY

Postby Slava » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:40 am

I'm not sure there is such a thing as an example. It either is or isn't. A conception of it might be the first Matrix movie, where there is no reality other than what is in your mind. You are in a pond of slime, connected to tubes and wires, but you believe you are living an entire life, interacting with lots of other people. However, it's all in your mind.

One problem with this is that it can never be proven. Any proof would have to come from outside your consciousness, and if everything comes from your mind, there can't be anything outside it.

Consider this; I'm a solipsist, therefore you don't really exist. You are a product (not necessarily a figment) of my imagination. So is the computer I'm typing on. And the desk the computer is on, etc.

I'm not the greatest fan of the site, but Wikipedia does have an interesting article on solipsism. Here's a bit from the first paragraph:

"Solipsism is a ... position that knowledge of anything outside one's own specific mind is unjustified. The external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist."

So, you see, solipsism isn't really about dwelling on oneself. It's the belief that nothing else can really be known and may well be part of yourself in the first place.
Life is like playing chess with chessmen who each have thoughts and feelings and motives of their own.

MTC
Grand Panjandrum
Posts: 1104
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:40 am
Location: Pasadena

Postby MTC » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:36 pm

...Excellent explanation of Solipsism by Slava.

I see Solipsism as a philosophical position analogous in some ways to the psychological condition of Narcissism. Remember Narcissus who fell in love with his own reflection?

Then we have the Megalomaniac, Gadaffi, et al. Bertrand Russell commented: "The megalomaniac differs from the narcissist by the fact that he wishes to be powerful rather than charming, and seeks to be feared rather than loved. To this type belong many lunatics and most of the great men of history."

User avatar
Slava
Great Grand Panjandrum
Posts: 8107
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:31 am
Location: Finger Lakes, NY

Postby Slava » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:47 pm

MTC, I'm afraid I can't agree with the tie-ins between solipsism, narcissism, and megalomania. The last of the three requires the input, and approval, of others. The second pretty much ignores the existence of others in order to concentrate on the self. The first doesn't necessarily accept the existence of others.
Life is like playing chess with chessmen who each have thoughts and feelings and motives of their own.

User avatar
bamaboy56
Lexiterian
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:20 pm
Location: The Deep South

Postby bamaboy56 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:03 pm

Interesting discussion, although I had to differ somewhat with Slava's comment that "You could very well hate yourself, and that's pretty much the opposite of egotism", only insofar as I believe that the opposite of hate (dislike of oneself) is narcissism (love of oneself).
Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today I am wise, so I'm going to change myself. -- Rumi

sardith
Lexiterian
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:21 am
Location: Central California

solipsistic

Postby sardith » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:09 pm

The fact that you explain solipsism by using the movie, the Matrix is troubling to me, since that movie completely confused me. I just didn't GET it.

But, back to Mr. Bonhoeffer, I CAN see how he, as a self-sacrificing martyr, can be considered solipsistic, if you look at the circumstances of his historical situation, the rise of the Nazi oppression on the churches forcing a self-imposed monastic existence for preservation of the seminary. Then later, a spy's life, capture, then prison. Solipsistic? Yeah, I guess so.

One more thing, if anyone gets around to reading that Metaxas Bonhoeffer book, I would LOVE to know what you think of it! :)

Sardith

MTC
Grand Panjandrum
Posts: 1104
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:40 am
Location: Pasadena

Postby MTC » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:08 pm

In response to Slava's comments regarding Solipsism, Narcissism and Megalomania, I believe he may have misunderstand my position. Making only a loose comparison between Solipsism and Narcissism I said there was "a possible analogy in some ways" between Solipsism and Narcissism. I did not state they are one and the same, or even that there is a close analogy between them. Additionally, I did not state any connection at all between Megalomania and either Solipsism or Narcissism.

Defining terms is a good place to begin. The OED defines these two words as follows:
Solipsism:
[Dictionary Definition]: ‘solipsism’: the view or theory that only the self really exists or can be known. [from Latin ‘solus’ sole, alone + ‘ipse’ self]: in philosophy, the view or theory that only the self really exists or can be known. Now also, isolation, self-centeredness, selfishness. (Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, 6th ed).
•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Narcissism:
[Dictionary Definition]: ‘narcissism’: self-love; extreme vanity’. Psychology emotional or erotic gratification gained from contemplation of one's self or one's appearance,d (Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, 6ht ed.)

The "self-centeredness, selfishness" sense of Solipsism is nearly synonymous with "self-love, extreme vanity" sense of Narcissism. So right away there is an obvious connection between these two words. The semantic overlap alone would amply support my claim of a "possible analogy" between Solipsism and Narcissism.

Beyond dictionary definitions, it has been argued that Solipsism and psychological Narcissism are "intertwined."

"At the fundamental level, narcissism and solipsism are intertwined, as the ultimate goal for individuals affected by the former is the desire to return to the infantile state, as reflected by the latter. However, "solipsistic narcissism" outside that state is an oxymoron, as secondary narcissism, as Freud viewed it, is the state in which individuals attempt to reclaim that interconnectedness that epitomized the ego-state of the infantile, which requires the existence of others to unify with oneself. The only state that resembles this, primary solipsism, is only truly achieved at the infantile level, thus making the term functionally impossible for other people." ( See http://machines.pomona.edu/dfwwiki/inde ... inite_Jest)

The Shorter OED 6th ed. defines Megalomania as "Delusions of grandeur or self-importance, esp. resulting in mental illness; a passion for grandiose schemes; lust for power."

Collectively, the self-importance of Megalomania, the self-love of Narcissism and the self-centeredness of Solipsism are obviously related at some level, even though I claimed only a "possible analogy in some ways" between the last two terms.

I hope this makes my casual comment clear.

User avatar
bamaboy56
Lexiterian
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:20 pm
Location: The Deep South

Postby bamaboy56 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:05 am

MTC, I'm speechless (and impressed). No joking. Fine argument. Thanks.
Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today I am wise, so I'm going to change myself. -- Rumi

MTC
Grand Panjandrum
Posts: 1104
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:40 am
Location: Pasadena

Postby MTC » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:40 am

Thank you.

User avatar
bamaboy56
Lexiterian
Posts: 363
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:20 pm
Location: The Deep South

Postby bamaboy56 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:20 pm

MTC, ¡De Nada!
Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today I am wise, so I'm going to change myself. -- Rumi


Return to “Good Word Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 99 guests