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Romans in Britain

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Romans in Britain

Postby LukeJavan8 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:04 pm

I thought our UK posters might be interested
in this article, if you have not already seen it
in your local Media:


http://www.chad.co.uk/news/national/one ... -1-5443212
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Re: Romans in Britain

Postby Perry Lassiter » Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:34 pm

Ergo, the Brit language began to take on Latin.
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Re: Romans in Britain

Postby LukeJavan8 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:53 pm

Amen.
or
Thus be it so! (Amen being Hebrew.)
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Re: Romans in Britain

Postby MTC » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:10 pm

Cracie, Luke.

Ever hear of "Britalians?" Neither had I, but now's your chance. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians_i ... ed_Kingdom)

Luke's article could help explain the English affinity for Italy, historically a place they go to defrost their chilly reserve. Scratch an Englishman and what do you get? A warm-blooded Italian!
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Re: Romans in Britain

Postby Philip Hudson » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:01 am

Luke: Did you intend to post this in Res Diversae? It isn't a Good Word topic.

I can't easily follow this thread. First we are to understand that some Romans left their genetic markers in present day English men. Makes sense, but not surprising. Africans have left their genetic markers, names and customs on present day English people. Although it is not certain, it is said the Morris Dancers are an echo of an ancient presence of Africans in England.

Then MTC wants to scratch Englishmen. That might cause an international incident. I won’t be a party to it. We are expected to find Italians under the scratched surface of Englishmen.

Did I get the gist of the thing? Then I ask, to what end? I am sure some English people vacation in Italy, but I think Spain might be the preferred holiday spot. I have heard numerous English people mention a wonderful holiday in Spain by remarking, as if it were a positive point, that it was “quite hot” there. Being from Texas, quite hot, is not a positive remark. We air condition as much of Texas as we can. I know some popular Italian songs in English and Italian. Some of them are pretty neat, “The Isle of Capri” being one of them. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz_3vd6Ccrc. Again I hark back to my mother's knee. The lady’s voice on this old record was much like my mother’s voice. I never met an English person who could be scratched to reveal a closet Italian. This is not to deny that there might be some. Well, as long as you don't dig a Francophile from under an English person's skin, I suppose I should leave well enough alone.
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Re: Romans in Britain

Postby LukeJavan8 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:40 am

Res Diversae? It must be a case of some-timers, or
part-timers, or half-timers.
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Re: Romans in Britain

Postby Perry Lassiter » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:37 pm

For me, it matters not where you post. I read from the "new posts" column which lists in chronological order all posts since I last viewed the list. (Although it usually includes some prior to that, including my own.) I suspect most of you do that also.
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Re: Romans in Britain

Postby LukeJavan8 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:53 pm

I just wanted all the Brits here to see it.
Roman Britain fascinates me with all the
Arthurian, Druids, and with March 17 coming
the Patrick stuff.
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Re: Romans in Britain

Postby Perry Lassiter » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:08 pm

I had a friend, now deceased, who regularly reminded me that Irish were not all green. There were Orangemen too, of which he was one.
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Re: Romans in Britain

Postby LukeJavan8 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:47 pm

Hence the Irish Flag
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Re: Romans in Britain

Postby Philip Hudson » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:56 pm

An Australian friend told me that in many towns in Australia there are two St. Patrick's Day parades. They start at opposite ends of town at the same time and come toward each other on the main street. One parade wears the green. The other wears the orange. When the parades meet, a melee ensues.

I have made a fairly thorough review of Internet literature on Saint Patrick. The question of whether Patrick was really a saint has been discussed through the centuries. As a Baptist, I declare unequivocally that Patrick was and is a Saint.

The question remains whether Patrick is a Roman Catholic saint. Unfortunately, it seems that only Roman Catholics are allowed to enter into dialogue about this question. In my opinion, Catholicism puts up a smoke screen around the issue. It seems the Roman Catholic consensus centers about the notion that canonization can be achieved more than one way. It is my opinion that Patrick has never been actually canonized by the Roman Catholic Church. As I see it, the great popularity of Patrick among the Irish and the immense power of the Irish in the Roman Catholic Church have caused a sort of de-facto canonization of Patrick. Not being Roman Catholic, I cannot speak with authority on their doctrine. As an outsider it looks very much to me that Patrick was never made a Roman Catholic Saint. There is even a Roman Catholic group urging the Catholic Church to canonize Patrick at this late date.

I have difficulty finding material on the Internet that admits to Celtic Christianity being Non-Roman Catholic. I have participated in Celtic masses that were definitely not Roman Catholic. What do modern historians think the conflict between Lindisfarne and Canterbury was, a preference over hairstyle? Actually that is what they say it was, that and nothing more. My life long interest in this subject has led me to believe the controversy was of much more moment than a haircut. I believe the Celtic Church was not a part of the Roman Catholic Church and the Canterbury Bishop forced Celtic Christians to convert to Roman Catholicism. Celtic practices still exist in some churches in England. In Ireland, however, Celtic Christianity seems to have been totally obliterated. None of the above should be taken as an offence to my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters.

I know this is not a religion forum except as religion relates to English. The approach of Saint Patrick's Day emboldened me to write the above. If you are not interested in this subject, I hope you have long since deserted reading this blurb.
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Re: Romans in Britain

Postby Perry Lassiter » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:48 pm

Test for the efficacy of St Pat. Find a descendent with his DNA and send him to Louisiana. If he runs out all our snakes, he is indeed a Saint.
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Re: Romans in Britain

Postby gailr » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:25 pm

Luke: I would be very much surprised if there wasn't a notable population with Roman ancestry in the British Isles -- along with markers for the other waves of conquerors and settlers. The various genetic markers are fascinating; perhaps a greater popular understanding of them will help eradicate knee-jerk prejudices.

Are you familiar with Bryan Sykes' The Seven Daughters Eve? Although the stories about the seven women are of necessity fictional, they help bring history alive for those unacquainted with early cultures. The story of his research on mitochondrial DNA is fascinating and the penultimate chapter mentions 26 other clan mothers outside European lines. I look forward to published scholarship on those other lines someday.


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~


Philip: formal canonization in the Roman church only began late in the tenth century. Prior to that, saints were acclaimed locally and popularly, with a gradual shift to more formal declaration carrying greater cachet. Yes, Patrick is considered an RC saint; his day falls during Lent and is recognized as a Solemnity (up a notch from a Feast day) in the liturgical calendars of parishes named for him.

The political divisions in Ireland have contributed significantly to the dissent as to who has canonical "dibs" on him. At the same time, the popularity of secular St. Patrick's Day celebrations throughout the world have made him far more [famous] than many a saint with conventional feast days.
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Re: Romans in Britain

Postby Philip Hudson » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:18 am

I respect the Roman Catholic designation of Saints. I pretty much agree that all the saints designated by all the Christian Churches (including the Celtic Church) are indeed saints. My definition of saint is that of the New Testament, in which all Christians are made saints by their faith and the grace of Jesus. I admit I am not very saintly, but I am still a saint. Non-Christian religions and secular people also have saints. I defer to God himself to decide if they are or are not saints. God did not appoint me or any of us arbiters.
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Re: Romans in Britain

Postby LukeJavan8 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:31 pm

Philip: there was controversy also over the date of Easter,
if I remember correctly.

In the Roman Church canonization did not come into effect
for centuries. Many, like "St." Philomena were removed
from their calendar of 'saints" in the 50-60's because there
was doubt even of their existence; many thought St.
Christopher was removed, but not so, his feast was
downgraded according to their ranks of feasts.
Many "saints", e.g. the Apostles, are 'saints' but were
never canonized. As mentioned, canonization began in the
tenth century. Even the angels are called saints.
E.g. "Saint Michael the Archangel". There is also
'canonization by acclamation' as was attempted at the
funeral of Pope John Paul II, when the masses in the
courtyard chanted 'sancto subito' or 'sainthood now'.
It did not occur, but he is on his way to canonization.

Gailr: I will check out the Sykes references. I have heard of
but never investigated it. I am fascinated by mitochondrial
DNA research and all genetic research. Thanks.

Other churches 'canonize'. The Russian Orthodox Church
recently did so with the last Czar, Nicholas II and his
family. Their iconography is filled with saints that are
not so recognized by the Roman Church. And I agree
with the 'smoke screen' concept. And I most assuredly
agree that I am a 'saint' in Paul's concept, tho' I too
am not very 'saintly'.
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