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Seditionary

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Seditionary

Postby Grogie » Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:19 am

I wasn,t familiar with this adjective-noun. Very interesting.
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Postby Dr. Goodword » Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:02 pm

• sedition •

Pronunciation: sê-di-shên • Hear it!

Part of Speech: Noun, mass

Meaning: 1.
Rebellion, attempting to provoke a riot, especially to overthrow a government or authority. 2. Speech intended to incite to rebellion.

Notes: Apparently sedition has been a popular activity in the history of English-speaking people for this Good Word comes replete with a rich array of related words. The adjective, seditious, describes people who tend to foment rebellion; you can also be seditionary. This latter word may also be used as a noun to refer to such people: she is a seditionary, but then she is also a seditionist. Seditiousness is the proclivity that gave rise to all these words, which suggest that it is a proclivity that has been high on our minds over the years.

In Play: Among the most famous seditionists of all time were, of course, the Founding Fathers of the United States. The Boston Tea Party was a grand act of sedition. The point is, whether sedition is good or bad depends on your perspective. Czar Nicholas II of Russia did not like sailing on the sea of sedition in Russia at the turn of the 20th century; V. I. Lenin thought it just the medicine Russia needed.

Word History: Today's Good Word is another we borrowed from Old French and forgot to return. French inherited it from Latin seditio(n) "mutiny, civil discord" which comprises sed- "apart, on one's own" + itio(n) "going", a noun from itus, the past participle of ire "to go". The root sed- goes back to Proto-Indo-European *swe-, which also underlies English self and Hindi swami "one's own master, person due respect". There is evidence of its presence in solo, too. The political arm of the Irish Republican Army is called Sinn Fein, which means "we ourselves" in Irish. Fein comes from the same root with a suffix -n and centuries of lingual tinkering.
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Postby Brazilian dude » Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:52 pm

I never knew Grogie had psychic powers.

Today's Good Word is another we borrowed from Old French and forgot to return.

Funny.

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Postby M. Henri Day » Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:24 pm

Brazilian dude wrote:I never knew Grogie had psychic powers. ...


Live and learn ! Just regard it as a contribution to the debate on Intelligent - or otherwise - Design....

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Postby gailr » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:17 pm

Samuel Clemens knew about sedition; he was searched for it as an Innocent Abroad:
It was all the Italian I knew, and I was not certain whether that was Italian or French. The soldiers looked stupidly at each other and at me, and shook their heads and took me into custody. I said I wanted to go home. They did not understand me. They took me into the guard-house and searched me, but they found no sedition on me. They found a small piece of soap (we carry soap with us, now,) and I made them a present of it, seeing that they regarded it as a curiosity.


and also noted Joan of Arc's confession:
The great crime was accomplished. She had signed - what? She did not know - but the others knew. She had signed a paper confessing herself a sorceress, a dealer with devils, a liar, a blasphermer of God and His angels, a lover of blood, a promoter of sedition, cruel, wicked, commissioned of Satan; and this signature of hers bound her to resume the dress of a woman. There were other promises, but that one would answer, without the others; and that one could be made to destroy her.


Thomas Jefferson had some interesting comments about sedition, as well...

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Postby M. Henri Day » Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:44 pm

gailr wrote:...

Thomas Jefferson had some interesting comments about sedition, as well...


You seem to be thinking of the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798, gailr. For those familiar with these laws who feel they note a certain resemblance to a latter day so-called PATRIOT Act, let me point out that you said it, not I. But where, o where is Tom Jefferson when we need him ?...

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Postby Stargzer » Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:28 pm

M. Henri Day wrote: . . . Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798, gailr. For those familiar with these laws who feel they note a certain resemblance to a latter day so-called PATRIOT Act, let me point out that you said it, not I.


I'd have to agree that the Naturalization Act and the Sedition Act should never have been passed, but the Alien Act and the Alien Enemies Act could be reasonable. I, too, have some misgivings about parts of the Patriot Act, but we can continue this discussion when they fly a couple of airplanes into some office buildings or perhaps the Drottningholm Palace, the Stockholm Palace, the Kaknästornet or the Kista Science Tower in Stockholm.

But where, o where is Tom Jefferson when we need him ?...

Henri


He currently is at Monticello, which I believe is Italian for "small hill."

And in the hearts and minds of the people.
Regards//Larry

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
-- Attributed to Richard Henry Lee
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Postby gailr » Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:31 pm

And in the hearts and minds of the people.

May that shrine never go untended...
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Postby Stargzer » Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:40 pm

I just noticed the time: both the time of the last posts and the time of day here on the East Coast. It looks, from the message at the bottom of the page, like Lewisburg went back to Standard Time a day early. :wink:
Regards//Larry

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Postby M. Henri Day » Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:11 pm

Stargzer wrote: ... but we can continue this discussion when they fly a couple of airplanes into some office buildings or perhaps the Drottningholm Palace, the Stockholm Palace, the Kaknästornet or the Kista Science Tower in Stockholm.


Larry, to my mind the time to discuss these things is before such events happen - in the event they do - rather than afterward, when it is all too easy to panic and react in a manner contrary to the ends desired. Benjamin Franklin's adage to the effect that «they that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety» is worth keeping in mind, not only in the USA, but here in Sweden as well, where the government uses the fear of «terrorism» to push for ever greater police powers.

He [i e, Thomas Jefferson[sub]MHD[/sub]] currently is ... in the hearts and minds of the people.


Let us hope you are right, for then, I dare to trust, things will in the end go well, even if that will require much effort on the part of those who keep him there....

Henri
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Postby Stargzer » Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:04 am

M. Henri Day wrote: . . .Larry, to my mind the time to discuss these things is before such events happen - in the event they do - rather than afterward, when it is all too easy to panic and react in a manner contrary to the ends desired. Benjamin Franklin's adage to the effect that «they that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety» is worth keeping in mind, not only in the USA, but here in Sweden as well, where the government uses the fear of «terrorism» to push for ever greater police powers.


Ah, the Good Doctor Franklin--one of the sagest of our Founding Fathers (and reputedly father of quite a few, too :wink: ). We've managed to weather the storm so far; we haven't been under the heel of dictators since the end of Reconstructon. :wink:

One of Franklin's other quotes still applies today, although not quite in it's original meaning:

If we don't all hang together we shall surely all hang separately.


There is a spectre haunting not only Europe, but the entire world--the spectre of a different -ism: terrorism. We must all work together to rid the world of this scourge.


Still, I somehow can't visualize the terrorists calling Sweden "The Great Satan," so your government should have nothing to fear, unless it's home-grown terrorists they're worried about, although there are the unfortunate cases of the unsolved murder of Prime Minister Olof Palme and the murder of Foreign Minister Anna Lindh by a deranged Serbian, Mijailo Mijailović. (Those Serbs seem to have a propensity for that sort of thing, don't they? :wink: )

He [i e, Thomas Jefferson[sub]MHD[/sub]] currently is ... in the hearts and minds of the people.


Let us hope you are right, for then, I dare to trust, things will in the end go well, even if that will require much effort on the part of those who keep him there....[/quote

Henri


The conundrum of Freedom is that it is a delicate balancing act--we must allow freedom even to those who would take it from us. Thus the granting of march permits to neo-Nazis. We've had some rough spots over time, but I think we've managed to pull it off so far. Why else would there be so many people trying to come here legally and illegally just to work and live here, and not to blow us up?

We must be doing something right!
Regards//Larry

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Postby M. Henri Day » Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:03 am

Stargzer wrote: ...

We must be doing something right!


Let us hope that you - and all of us others as well ! - will continue to do the «somethings» that are right and cease to do those that are wrong - and somehow find wisdom enough to distinguish between them....

As regards «terrorism», I quite agree - if we remember that the definition - attempts by violent means to frighten the general public towards a certain course of action or away from another - applies equally to states as to other groups of individuals. Aeroplanes crashing into civilians in the WTC in New York are an example of non-state terrorism ; bombs falling from other aeroplanes on other civilians are an example of state terrorism. The United States' so-called «shock and awe» air attack on Baghdad, expressly designed to convince the population that it was futile to resist (two and one half years later, we know, however, that it did not succeed), is a prime example of such state terrorism....

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Postby Stargzer » Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:43 pm

M. Henri Day wrote: . . . As regards «terrorism», I quite agree - if we remember that the definition - attempts by violent means to frighten the general public towards a certain course of action or away from another - applies equally to states as to other groups of individuals.


You left a word out of your definition, mon ami:

terrorism

SYLLABICATION: ter·ror·ism

NOUN: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by the Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.



. . . Aeroplanes crashing into civilians in the WTC in New York are an example of non-state terrorism ; bombs falling from other aeroplanes on other civilians are an example of state terrorism. The United States' so-called «shock and awe» air attack on Baghdad, expressly designed to convince the population that it was futile to resist . . . is a prime example of such state terrorism....
Henri


We will have to agree to disagree on this. Saddam Hussein brazenly flouted UN sanctions, bringing all this down upon himself. The sanctions, of course, came from his unprovoked invasion of Kuwait. My own feeling is that sooner of later, most probably later, Iran would have backed the Shia and the Iraqi Sunnis would no longer be a minority: they would be extinct. The Sunni-Shia feud makes the Northern Ireland "troubles" look like a spat at a children's tea party, and of course there is no love lost between Iran and Saddam's Iraq. Probably the only hate more intense is that of the Islamic world for Israel.

As I recall, "shock and awe" did not target civilians indiscriminately, as did the saturation bombing of WWII. Much of Baghdad is still standing: it did not meet the fate of Dresden.

. . . (two and one half years later, we know, however, that it did not succeed), . . .


It has succeeded with all but a small minority, the Sunni followers of Saddam, who, although I haven't run the numbers, have probably murdered more Iraqis that they have Coalition troops. That's the advantage that terrorists or guerrrilas have: it's difficult to distinguish them from the friendlies. The only way to supress them is to, in the alledged words of Arnaud-Amaury, the Abbot of Citeau: "Kill them all, God will know his own." Either that, or try the Julius Caesar approach and make them all left-handed . . .
Regards//Larry

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Postby M. Henri Day » Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:33 am

I have some little familiarity with the history of the Cathars and the Crusade against them, Larry, and confess myself to be surprised that you would choose to take a man like Arnaud-Amaury as a model to be emulated (but perhaps you were writing tongue-in-cheek ?). As to the question of legality, how is that to be determined ? Governments regard their own acts as legal - according to the Iraqi government the attack on Kuwait was legal and justified, as, among other things, the Kuwaitis were pumping oil from a field that extended under the territories of both countries and refused to discuss the matter with the Iraqis. The Charter of the UNO forbids, as you surely know, the use of war to settle conflicts among nations (Chapter I, Article 2. 4), with two exceptions : the provisions of Article 42 which allow the Security Council to «take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security» and those of Article 51, which states that, in the case of an attack on a Member State - both Iraq and the US were member states in 2003 - «Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security». No Security Council decision authorised the United States to attack Iraq in 2003, and Iraq had certainly not committed an «armed attack» against the United States, which would have allowed the latter to legally defend itself against Iraq «until the Security Council [had] taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security». According to my, admittedly imperfect, understanding of the International Law governing relations among States, the US attack on Iraq was illegal, and therefore the terms of the AHD definition of terrorism you reproduce are perfectly applicable to that attack. That after this unprovoked attack on a Member State, the Security Council has taken no measures to restore «international peace and security» can, perhaps, best be explained not by appealing to the nature of current Law but rather to the fact that the US has a military budget as great as, if not greater, than that of the rest of the world combined. As a citizen of the US, you may regard this as right and proper and feel that no international laws and treaties should restrict the sovereign right of the US government to take any action it so pleases. I find it difficult to agree with you in this respect ; on the contrary, I think that all governments - yours, mine, that of any country you can name - should be hobbled and checked by binding restrictions on their freedom of action, such restrictions to be determined by all parties, small as well as large, weak as well as powerful, concerned. Whether the human race will make it that far or destroy itself first, is a moot point. Den som lever får se !...

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Postby Stargzer » Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:23 am

M. Henri Day wrote:I have some little familiarity with the history of the Cathars and the Crusade against them, Larry, and confess myself to be surprised that you would choose to take a man like Arnaud-Amaury as a model to be emulated (but perhaps you were writing tongue-in-cheek ?). . .
Henri


Tongue firmly in cheek, Henri, as also indicated by the reference to Big Julie (as a Latin teacher referred to him). Another indication of the conundrum of Freedom.
Regards//Larry

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