halberd

[Brazilian dude]

halberd

Brazilian dude

[Grogie]

Wonderful word Brazilian Dude.

[Brazilian dude]

Yes, it is. I was wondering how you say that in other languages (including Portuguese).

Brazilian dude

[M. Henri Day]

Swedish «hillebard», Danish «hellebard» ; variations of same in German, Dutch, etc. French «hallebarde», Italian «alabarda»....

Henri

[frank]

Swedish «hillebard», Danish «hellebard» ; variations of same in German, Dutch, etc. French «hallebarde», Italian «alabarda»....

In Dutch it's indeed "hellebaard", Middle Dutch "hellebaerde", "helmbaerde", 'helm' meaning 'steel' (+/- pole, long stick) and ba(e)rde meaning 'axe'.
Possible cognates of "baerde" are Gr. "perthein" ('to destroy, to kill') and Old Irish "brissim" ('i break').

Frank

[Brazilian dude]

Italian alabarda has taken me to Portuguese/Spanish/Catalan alabarda and Romanian halebardă . There's even a Portuguese expression, passar pelas alabardas: castigo militar que consistia em carregar de alabardas o soldado que faltava à disciplina, which means pass through the halberds: military punishment that consisted in carrying on halberds the soldier that had not attended discipline (very rough translation).

Thank you, Henri.

Brazilian dude

[M. Henri Day]

BD, reading the Portuguese sentence as if it were a sort of dialectal Italian, I came to an alternative translation, viz, «... military punishment consisting of loading a soldier guilty of a disciplinary infraction down with halbards» (i e, forcing him to carry a great many of the weapons, which must have been extremely heavy). Is this a possible interpretation, and if so, how can one disambiguate between the two ? (Riding on halbards, so long as one didn't have the points of the weapons stuck up one's anatomy, would seem to me less a trial for the rider than for his comrades who presumably bore him.)

Henri

[Brazilian dude]

Is this a possible interpretation, and if so, how can one disambiguate between the two ?

I don't know. I don't understand the Portuguese there myself. (Insert embarrassed smiley here.)

Brazilian dude

[tcward]

I'm neither a Portuguese scholar nor a military scholar, but I believe the standard translation would involve the gerund form, i.e. passing [back or up] the halberds -- which I would loosely translate as passing all the heavy stuff to the new guy (or to the guy who's been causing the most problems lately).

This type of initiation rite is common still today in many groups, isn't it? Standard psychological (read: demeaning) attempt to train someone...

-Tim

[Brazilian dude]

as passing all the heavy stuff to the new guy (or to the guy who's been causing the most problems lately).

I'm amazed at Henri and Tim. I wasn't able to arrive at the same conclusion myself because of the verb carregar. I kept thinking of carregar like transportar and imagined people carrying soldiers around with their backs pricked by halberds, but that preposition de proved a stumbling block to me, which, in my view, would have to be changed to com. Now carregar alguém de algo does have the meaning that both Tim and Henri gave, of imposing something on someone. How can I have been so stupid? For a while I thought that the text had been badly written. It looks as if my brain has been badly wired.

Brazilian dude

[M. Henri Day]

... How can I have been so stupid? For a while I thought that the text had been badly written. It looks as if my brain has been badly wired.

Been carrying too many halberds and drinking too much guaraná lately ?...

Henri

[Brazilian dude]

Guaraná yeah, but halberds I had no idea what they were until two days ago.

Brazilian dude

[gailr]

Italian alabarda has taken me to Portuguese/Spanish/Catalan alabarda and Romanian halebardă . There's even a Portuguese expression, passar pelas alabardas: castigo militar que consistia em carregar de alabardas o soldado que faltava à disciplina, which means pass through the halberds: military punishment that consisted in carrying on halberds the soldier that had not attended discipline (very rough translation).

Thank you, Henri.

Brazilian dude

I read this as a form of running the gauntlet, although I like the other suggestions, too.
-gailr

[tcward]

Yep, I could agree with that too!

-Tim
...so easy to be noncommittal about these things!

[M. Henri Day]

...

I read this as a form of running the gauntlet, although I like the other suggestions, too.
-gailr

But that would make it difficult to understand the use of the verb «carregar» (to load or load down), unless it's employed here metaphorically. Of course, one could imagine a line of fellow soldiers which the erring soldier had to pass, every soldier in the line giving another halberd to bear until he collapsed under the weight or made it through. But whacking him with the things would seem, as I said, out of place. Perhaps BD could investigate further ?...

Henri