The subjunctive mood in English - once more with feeling

[Brazilian dude]

But you aren't coining that phrase. Somebody else before you invented it.

Brazilian dude

[M. Henri Day]

Ah, BD - nothing, save only irony, misses your eagle eye !...

Henri

[Brazilian dude]

This caught my eye today, especially coming from an English teacher to speakers of other languages:

...it's very important that learners are given multiple opportunities to speak and use the language as often as possible, and reading texts can provide the input that learners need to get started.

Maybe I should point out that he's an American, to whom the subjunctive sounds much more spontaneous than to a Brit, at least so I've heard. But on the other hand, I've noticed that the subjunctive of be tends to be much less often used, perhaps because it is so different from the conjugated indicative forms (am, is, are), whereas all other verbs possess an unmarked present tense conjugation and a marked one with the addition of s or es to the infinitive for third person singular.

Brazilian dude

[Brazilian dude]

I googled: "suggest that he go" -462 hits

"suggest that he goes" -859 hits

"ask that he do" -193 hits

"ask that he does" -440 hits

"propose that he be" -170 hits

"propose that he is" -581 hits

Since suggest and propose, as has been said, can also properly used with the indicative, a detail that had skipped my mind, I used verbs and adjectives that could properly only be used in the subjunctive (if I haven't goofed up, obviously):

"recommend that he do" - 446 hits
"recommend that he does" - 532 hits
"recommended that he do" - 340 hits
"recommended that he did" - 89 hits

"asked that he do" - 387 hits
"asked that he did" - 382 hits

"is essential that he be" - 409 hits
"is essential that he is" - 343 hits
"was essential that he be" - 356 hits
"was essential that he was" - 55 hits

"is essential that he do" - 43 hits
"is essential that he does" - 123 hits
"was essential that he do" - 34 hits
"was essential that he did" - 21 hits

It's comforting to see that, although the indicative is encroaching on subjunctive territory, the subjunctive is not yet dead, quite the contrary, it is still preponderant (except in "is essential that he do/does").

Brazilian dude

[tcward]

Funny that you should mention that "is essential" phrase and its results... As I read your post I noticed it and thought that there would more likely be opportunities in English where the hits would not necessarily be representative of the misuse of the indicative.

For example, if I were to say:

"What is essential? I can tell you one thing that is essential: that he is an elder of this church."

If the discussion is about someone who is an elder in that church, that quote would only be correct (grammatically) with the indicative, wouldn't it?

-Tim

[Brazilian dude]

Oh, maybe this is one of those cases Apo mentioned earlier. I think you're right: he is (indeed) an elder and that is essential. It does help to "Romancize" the sentence to see the difference.

Brazilian dude

[JJ]

When certain ethnic folks in this country speak as the following, are they using the subjunctive mood?:

"If he be down to Leon's again, I'm awn killim..."

I actually heard, in reference to BeBe and CeCe Wynans, "He be BeBe, an' she be CeCe."

Hey--it's not original with me--but I DID laugh my arsoff.

Sheesh--I laugh listening to Cajuns in the truck stops on the interstate...

If I'm reading, "Should he have come earlier...", I'm mentally telling myself that it's a question, dude, but it could very well be a tense/case/mood that I can't even pronounce, like a past perfunctily intricative conditional obtrusive...

Subjunctive in Spanish makes a lot more sense than in English. But what do I know?

JJ

[Brazilian dude]

"If he be down to Leon's again, I'm awn killim..."

Here it is, because it depends on a condition, introduced by if. The others are not.

Brazilian dude

[gailr]

To use the subjunctive or to not use
the subjunctive, that is the essential
question. Whether it be nobler on the
page to suffer the vag'ries of question-
able grammar, or to insist that one
employs an archaic and difficult
tense. But scoff you now, fair mem'rabilia.
Synonymph, in thy past perfunctily
intricative condition'l obtrusive,
be all my ungrammatical faux pas
be remembered.

-gailr
with apologies to both Will and JJ...

[Brazilian dude]

or to insist that one employs an archaic and difficult
tense

Archaic and difficult? It's neither archaic nor difficult. How can it be difficult if all you need the base form of the verb, no changes to it at all?

Brazilian dude

[Brazilian dude]

You guys are too querulous. You should learn OUR subjunctive.

Brazilian dude

[gailr]

Had I but known that the only thing to fear was not fear itself, I should not have been caught unawares by the shadowy menace of...The Portugese Subjunctive!
-gailr

[Brazilian dude]

Or the French, or the Italian, or the Spanish, or the Latin. The Romanian one is easy, though.

Brazilian dude

[Stargzer]

Does this qualify as the subjunctive?

Oh,would that Congress make Spamming a capital crime, or at least life in solitary 24x7 . . .

Based on our recent experience in the Suggest a Good Word forum . . .

[Brazilian dude]

I would say yes, since it expresses a wish on the part of the speaker.

Brazilian dude