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How do you say cathedral in that language?

A discussion of the peculiarities of languages and the differences between them.

Postby Garzo » Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:19 am

That's a double whatsit!

The word church (and kyrka) comes from the Greek κυριου οικος (kyriou oikos), meaning Lord's house, or κυριακος (kyriakos), meaning 'dominical'.

If the former version is taken, the addition of a Latin 'domus' seems repetitious. It is interesting that such a domestic word is used to describe large churches.

-- Garzo.
"Poetry is that which gets lost in translation" — Robert Frost
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Postby astrokatastro » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:03 pm

in Greek is καθεδρικός ναος. it reminds me the two word kathisma καθισμα and edra εδρα.i think it is the episkpikos naos opoy leitoyrgei o episkophs. arcbishop church.
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Postby Brazilian dude » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:11 pm

i think it is the episkpikos naos opoy leitoyrgei o episkophs. arcbishop church.

Your English is sometimes inscrutable. Is that also Greek? You remind me of the father in the Greek wedding. Everything comes from Greek, just give me a word and I'll tell you how it comes from Greek. :D

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Last edited by Brazilian dude on Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby tcward » Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:17 pm

anders wrote:The normal word for our cathedrals is domkyrka. Kyrka is, rather transparently, 'church'. The dom- part is more obscure, but is generally thought to be derived from Latin domus 'house' (Gk dómos, Skt dámaH).


Interesting. One often hears the word "church-house" in these parts. I don't know if that's a Southernism or if it can be found in general English-speaking territories...

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Postby Apoclima » Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:33 am

astrokatastro:
καθεδρικός ναος


It looks to me like καθεδρικός is the adjectival form of καθεδρα, "chair" and ναος means "temple." We don't normally say church after cathedral, but cathedral is the adjectival form of "cathedra" which as we all know, is the proper name of the bishop's seat or throne, hence, "the chair temple."

cathedral (n.)
1587, "church of a bishop," from phrase cathedral church (1297), translating L.L. ecclesia cathedralis "church of a bishop's seat," from Gk. kathedra "seat, bench," from kata "down" + hedra "seat, base, chair, face of a geometric solid," from PIE base *sed- "to sit" (see sedentary).


astrokatastro:
it reminds me the two word kathisma καθισμα and edra εδρα


Both καθισμα and εδρα mean "seat" in Greek, and he points to the similarity of the beginning and end of καθεδρα, καθ(ισμα)εδρα.

Strange enough, but the word καθισμα does exist in English, but is does not mean "seat" or "chair."

cathisma -short hymn used as response

I could not find the etymology, however!

astrokatastro:
.i think it is the episkpikos naos opoy leitoyrgei o episkophs.



επισκοπικός ναος - the bishop's temple

οπου -where

λειτουργει -functions

o -the (?)

επισκιπης -bishopric

Apo

PS we call it now-a-days, a diocese, διoικησις
Last edited by Apoclima on Thu Mar 31, 2005 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby astrokatastro » Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:36 am

I have seen the movie twice.I find myselve like father and son too.
Αν θελεις nα προσφωνήσεις κάποιον στην Ελλάδα θα τον καλέσεις Κύριο. Παραδείγματος χάριν Κυριε Anders.
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Postby Apoclima » Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:51 pm

If you want to address somebody in Greece, you call him "Gentleman" (Κύριο), for example, "Gentleman" Anders!

We say "sir," without a name, or "hey, Mister," if we don't know his name, or we use "Mr." with their last name. You can use "Mr." with a first name, but it is informal and can be jocular.

What movie are you talking about, Κυριε αστροkαταστρο?

I notice that "Κύριο" has a slightly different form from "Κυριε."

Is "Κυριε" the remnants of a vocative case?

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Postby anders » Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:33 am

Apoclima wrote:I notice that "Κύριο" has a slightly different form from "Κυριε."
Is "Κυριε" the remnants of a vocative case?

Not just "remnants", I suppose. In a Greek hospital, I heard a native call out for the doctor, "Iatré!" (I'm too lazy to find the Greek), but I guess the nominative is iatrós. I got cold shivers of delight, like when I hear what I interpret as a subjunctive in English or Swedish, be it identical to the indicative or not.

In an "ordinary" High Mass (without communion) in the Church of Sweden, item #4 is "Lord, have mercy upon us". Those words in Swedish, as a heading, are in our hymn books followed by "(Kyrie)", so this vocative is well known by all frequent and sufficiently interested churchgoers in Protestant Sweden.

(In the sixties, "exotic" versions of Mass were very popular in Sweden, especially among the religious youth. We listened to records like the African Misa Luba, and the Misa Criolla by Ramirez, learned the Kyrie-Gloria-Credo-Sanctus-Agnus dei sequence, and compared it to the almost identical progression we listed to on every Sunday.)
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Postby tcward » Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:23 am

Funny, I didn't pick up on the Lord-Gentleman connection until anders' last post...

And, yes, the Kyrie eleison, Christe eleison, Kyrie eleison sequence is used in many churches as a corporate recognition of sin and (subsequent) request for mercy.

There are many fine musical settings of that text! :)

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Postby astrokatastro » Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:29 pm

Yes it is a vocative case, and yes it is informal with the first name and in Greece. The movie is – That fat greek weding- very funny movie. But it didn’t like to many Greeks. Especially didn’t like to Greek women.
Έχουμε πτώσεις στην γραμματική , ονομαστικη , γενική αιτιατική και κλητική.
Ιατρός it is in ancient type in nominative. In new is Giatros γιατρός like Ιωάννης is the ancient type and new is Giannis Γιάννης.
In ancient Greek there is one more πτώση η δοτική που δεν υπάρχει στην νέα Ελληνική. Τω ιατρω it is in δοτική.
In Orrthodoxy -Kυριε ελέησον- it is not connected only with the sins of a person but with all the goods that God can give to men.
To ελέησον is related with treatment, χαρίσματα της μίας και μόνο Θεία Χάρης, and with the paradise the last with mercy.
To έλεον , το λάδι ,to ελεολαδο in new greeks ,is related with therapy from the ancient times with with wine.
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Postby Apoclima » Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:39 pm

Thanks, anders! I finally found some "grammar" on Modern Greek. For some reason, probably because people are "scared" of grammar, none of the sites I had looked out dared point out that there are 4 cases in Modern Greek!

For me, it is much easier to have things like this stated upfront rather than to have to reinvent the wheel everytime I look at a new language. I helps me recognize the patterns faster, and also know what I am looking at and for.

Greek Grammar Index

Apo

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Postby astrokatastro » Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:36 am

Έδρα means also and foundation. Έδρανο is αn no mobail chair.
To γνωστό Κύριε είναι η μετάφρασή του «Γιαχβέ» της Εβραϊκής Παλαιάς Διαθήκης στην Ελληνιστική γλώσσα του 3ου αιώνα π.Χ. από τους Ο΄(72), και είναι κληρονομιά (κατάλοιπο) της Ορθοδοξίας στην Δύση.
Last edited by astrokatastro on Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Garzo » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:17 am

In the Septuagint, Greek version of the Hebrew Bible that was used in most of the early church, the Tetragrammaton/Adonai was translated as Kyrios. So, in biblical contexts, Kyrios does not just mean sir, but, more profoundly, disguises the name of God, rather like a burning bush.

In the Greek liturgy, Kyrie eleison is the response to the litany, which occurs in two places. Non-Greek eastern liturgies often alternate the Greek phrase with the native one. I love the Arabic translation: yaa rabu raHam -- using the vocative particle yaa! The Latin liturgy uses a shortened litany in conjunction with the 'Gloria in excelsis'. Only recently have the 'Kyries' (that's an English plural on a Greek vocative, btw!) become associated with the act of penitence. The Latin translation, Domine, miserere, has always been penitential, but the Greek version has always been used in the liturgy.

The connotations of eleison have always led me to elaion -- 'olive oil'. The mercy is seen as an anointing or as oil on troubled waters makes them calm (like the Somerset folk song: Yer be trouble over Bridgwater, based on some American pop ballad).

-- Garzo.
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Postby astrokatastro » Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:02 pm

If we want to know exactly what means Kύριος in religion we must find the exact meaning in 3rd century b.C. Kύριος right don’t has the meaning of sir. It isn’t title of noble. There aren’t that things in Greece, never was. Kύριος rather means κάτοχος holder- position of something. Kύριος περιουσίας, Κύριος οικίας. The word Agathos Αγαθός in ancient Greek means good man, in new, something like βλάκας - stupid.
In the translation of 70 the word Yiahve is translated once with the word Θεός and second with the translating mistake Κύριος. In Orthodox tradition Yiahve is the Christ with no body yet.
The psalms of David are full of Kύριε and ελέησον.
Ελεησον με ο Θεός. Είπεν ο Κύριος τω Κυρίω μου.
The writers of the New Testament was used in the related texts when they were reported to the Old Testament, the translation of 70.
That things they passed in adoration. All we know that the language of the first Church (Εκκλησίας )was Greeek.
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Postby astrokatastro » Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:05 pm

Ander wrote
The normal word for our cathedrals is domkyrka. Kyrka is, rather transparently, 'church'. The dom- part is more obscure, but is generally thought to be derived from Latin domus 'house' (Gk dómos, Skt dámaH).


And don't forget the Greek word δομή. :D
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