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How do you say cathedral in that language?

A discussion of the peculiarities of languages and the differences between them.

Postby Apoclima » Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:18 pm

αστροκαταστρο
Έχουμε πτώσεις στην γραμματική , ονομαστικη , γενική αιτιατική και κλητική.


Don't forget the genitive!

Is it just me or has your Αγγλικά really improved over the last few days?

astro:
To έλεον , το λάδι ,to ελεολαδο in new greeks ,is related with therapy from the ancient times with with wine.


Wine infused with herbs, I suppose!

Apo
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Postby Brazilian dude » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:15 pm

βλάκας - stupid bears a striking resemblance with Japanese 馬鹿 baka. So I guess Greek originated Japanese as well, you never know :wink:

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Postby Stargzer » Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:01 am

Brazilian dude wrote: . . .So I guess Greek originated Japanese as well, you never know :wink:

Brazilian dude


Just so long as you don't try to relate it all back to Nahuatl! We had enough of THAT somewhere else!

Aarrrgggghhhh!
Regards//Larry

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Postby Stargzer » Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:06 am

anders wrote: . . .
In an "ordinary" High Mass (without communion) in the Church of Sweden, item #4 is "Lord, have mercy upon us". Those words in Swedish, as a heading, are in our hymn books followed by "(Kyrie)", so this vocative is well known by all frequent and sufficiently interested churchgoers in Protestant Sweden.

(In the sixties, "exotic" versions of Mass were very popular in Sweden, especially among the religious youth. We listened to records like the African Misa Luba, and the Misa Criolla by Ramirez, learned the Kyrie-Gloria-Credo-Sanctus-Agnus dei sequence, and compared it to the almost identical progression we listed to on every Sunday.)


Same for the Roman Catholic Mass, where what was once Latin is now in the vernacular.

Speaking of exotic, back in the 1960's David Axlerod wrote a rock Mass, Mass in F Minor, which was recorded by the Electric Prunes. That vinyl platter is one of my favorite albums. The "Kyrie" from that album was used on the sound track for the movie Easy Rider (1969).

Mass in F Minor is a complete Latin Mass (at least, as I remember a Latin High Mass): Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei. The sound clips on Amazon are, unfortunately, very short.

The difference between a High Mass and a Low Mass in those days was that a High Mass was sung, for the most part (Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, etc.). There was Communion at all Masses.

The last two lines of the Latin Mass were:

Ite Missa est.
Deo Gratias.


Which in English became:

Go, the Mass is ended.
Thanks be to God!


Because that last line could be interpreted two ways, :wink: the Mass now ends:

The Mass is ended. Go in peace and love to serve The Lord.
Thanks be to God.
Regards//Larry

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Postby Stargzer » Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:20 am

tcward wrote: . . .
And, yes, the Kyrie eleison, Christe eleison, Kyrie eleison sequence is used in many churches as a corporate recognition of sin and (subsequent) request for mercy.

There are many fine musical settings of that text! :)

-Tim


It also appears in Tom Lehrer's classic, "The Vatican Rag:"

Do whatever steps you want, if
You have cleared them with the Pontiff.
Everybody say his own
Kyrie eleison,
Doin' the Vatican Rag.


(There's a MIDI link on the lyric page should you wish to attempt singing it for yourself. :) )
Regards//Larry

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Postby astrokatastro » Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:34 am

I’m always on a hurry and I make terrible mistakes. I can write better.
Geni-tive is η γενική geni-kh.
Πως τα πας , καλά; Ή δύσκολα;
You wrote:
Wine infused with herbs, I suppose!
Ι’m not sure .
At least η βλακεία it is the same in all over the world. :D
What is the Mass;
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Postby anders » Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:36 am

Brazilian dude wrote:βλάκας - stupid bears a striking resemblance with Japanese 馬鹿 baka. So I guess Greek originated Japanese as well, you never know :wink:

Brazilian dude

Years and years ago, I read somewhere that baka was the only swear word in Japanese, abuse instead mainly using circumscripts like in Chinese, "You rotten turtle egg" etc. The explanation of baka was that it was a loan from English "beggar". Several years later, but still long ago, I read an explanation using other vowels in "beggar". :mrgreen:
Irren ist männlich
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Postby Flaminius » Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:02 am

And of course Tula's papa once proved to my satisfaction that kimono is not really a Japanese word but a remote descendant of kheimoon or winter. That's what they wear when it gets cold, stupid!

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Postby Brazilian dude » Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:42 am

I suppose the Japanese (the Chinese also?) consider the horse and the deer to be two very stupid animals and decided to put them together to have something even stupider. At least that's what makes up the word baka.

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Postby Flaminius » Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:24 am

Oh, this has to do with how Shin-dynasty got corrupted under the Nisee-Kootee and his chief eunuch Chookoo. Of course nobody but I understand what I am talking about with this peculiar transliteration. I tell the whole story when I can type kanjis from my office PC.

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Postby astrokatastro » Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:02 am

flam wrote:
And of course Tula's papa once proved to my satisfaction that kimono is not really a Japanese word but a remote descendant of kheimoon or winter. That's what they wear when it gets cold, stupid!

Toula’s papa didn’t know anything. I’ll tell you my friend from Japan where the word kimono comes from, from the two Greek words εκεί μόνο- ekei mono- only there. Means in Japan you find it. :D
Did you enjoy the film?
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Postby M. Henri Day » Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:24 pm

Garzo, in the event Anders desires a collaborator, I'd be willing to help with the Swedish, and possibly with the Norwegian translation as well. But one can't (or at least shouldn't) translate what one can't understand, and I found myself in some difficulty with the biographical sketch of the good William Longspee :
... By marriage, he gained the title of the first Earl of Salisbury.

How can one gain a title by marriage, and yet be the first to hold that title ? Or does the above period mean indicate that William Longspee gained the title of someone else who was the first Earl of Salisbury, presumably by marrying his widow ?...

Henri

PS : By the way, there's nothing tautological in the Swedish «domkyrka» for «cathedral», as you seem to understand :
The word church (and kyrka) comes from the Greek κυριου οικος (kyriou oikos), meaning Lord's house, or κυριακος (kyriakos), meaning 'dominical'.

If the former version is taken, the addition of a Latin 'domus' seems repetitious.

What has happened is that the οικος in κυριου οικος has been replaced with the Latin equivalent domus, which was then transposed to the front of κυριου and then agglutinated with the latter to form a single word. Our confusion arises from the fact that words like «church» have rather come to refer to a building, to the exclusion of other things «appertaining to the Lord»....

PPS (added 2005.04.05) : While on the subject of «church», the following, taken from Thomas Cahill's OpEd in today's New York Times, might be of interest :
Back then, the church called itself by the Greek word ekklesia, the word the Athenians used for their wide open assembly, the world's first participatory democracy. (The Apostle Peter, to whom the Vatican awards the title of first pope, was one of many leaders in the primitive church, as far from an absolute monarch as could be, a man whose most salient characteristic was his frequent and humble confession that he was wrong.) In using ekklesia to describe their church, the early Christians meant to emphasize that their society within a society acted not out of political power but only out of the power of love, love for all as equal children of God. But they went much further than the Athenians, for they permitted no restrictions on participation: no citizens and noncitizens, no Greeks and non-Greeks, no patriarchs and submissive females. For, as St. Paul put it repeatedly, "There is no longer Jew or Greek, slave or free, male and female; for all are one in Christ Jesus."
曾记否,到中流击水,浪遏飞舟?
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Postby Brazilian dude » Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:13 pm

Can Garzo, or anybody, help me with some doubts found in the translation? I just need to get these things cleared up because the rest is done.

What are flying buttresses and strainer archers? Does anybody know the Portuguese, or at least the Spanish equivalent for them?

What is meant by quire in the text, especially quire of the nave?

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Last edited by Brazilian dude on Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby gailr » Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:35 pm

Here'sa general link with architectural definitions which may help.

Here's an enlargeable image of a strainer arch at Wells Cathedral and another from St. Mary's, Rushden.

Architecture.about.com has definitions and illustrations for terms such as flying buttress and links to more on terms such as choirs/quires:
The section of a Cruciform Cathedral located between the Nave and the main Altar. But be careful! The exact perimeter of the Choir is often disputable from cathedral to cathedral. By definition: the place where the psalms are sung. Loosely used to define the whole East end of a cathedral, and as a synonym for Chancel.


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Postby Apoclima » Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:56 am

flying buttress - contrafuerte

No luck with strainer arches!

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