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A Mysterious Message from China

A discussion of the peculiarities of languages and the differences between them.

A Mysterious Message from China

Postby yurifink » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:24 am

There's a Russian sinological forum at www.oriental.ru/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?b ... inguistics. A certain economist in Siberia has got an invitation letter from China. It is here.

邀 请 信
据囤际投入产出学会 决定,第15届国际投ࠣ 7;产出大会于2005年6
月26日一7月1日在北京 013;国人民大学举行。 823;会学术委员会已经
批准你的沦文参加这 次大会,并请届时在 北京的大会上宣讲你 的沦
文。为此,我们愉快 地邀请你作为第15届ࢲ 9;际投入产出大会正ঁ 5;代
表参加北京的会议。
国际投入产出大会是 一次云集世界经济学 家、统计学家和管理 学家的
盛会,这次大型国际 学术会议由国际投入 产出学会与,中国人 民大学、
中国投入产出学会(国 ;家统计局)共同组织ᦁ 2;届时将有来自世界40
多个国家300多位专家z 89;教授、学者参加会ť 58;。
我们希望你的研究把 国际前沿方法带进来 ,以至于推动中国和 世界投
入产出技术的理沦和 应用研究。
你的访问时间是2005年6 6376;26日到2005年7月1日,国 8469;旅费、
北京食宿费自理。如 带家属观光,请提前 与我们预定房间或旅 游。
此致
敬礼
赵彦云 教授 主任
教育部人文社科重点 研究基地:中国人民 大学应用统计科学研 究中心

The difficulties appear already at the beginning.

_______________________________________________

邀 请 信
据囤际投入产出学会 决定


Yaoqîngxìn
Jù dùnjì tóurù chânchú xuéhuì juédìng,...

_______________________________________________
Invitation
According to the decision of the Institute on ?????,...

Nobody of the forum members cannot translate 'dùnjì tóurù chânchú. 'Tóurù chânchú' = 'input-output' in dictionaries, but it's not helpful. Maybe will any ideas appear at our forum? (Investments efficiency? Intensification of resources development?)

Regards.
Nothing must be done hastily but killing of fleas
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Postby yurifink » Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:17 pm

Here's a more readable version

_______________________________________________
邀请信

据囤际投入产出学会 决定,第15届国际投 入产出大会于2005年6 月26日 - 7月1日在北京中国 人民 大学 举行。 大会 学术 委员会已经批准你的 沦文参加这次大会 , 并请届时在北京的 大会上宣讲你的沦文 。 为此,我们愉快地邀 请你作为第15届国际 投入产出大会正式 代表参加北京的会议 。
国际投入产出大会是 一次云集世界经济学 家、统计学家和管理 学家的盛会,这次大 型国际 学术会议由国际投入 产出学会与,中国人 民大学、中国投入产 出学会(国 ;家统计局)共同组织 届时将有来自世界40 多个国家300多位专家 者 教授、学者参加会议 。
我们希望你的研究把 国际前沿方法带进来 ,以至于推动中国和 世界投入产出技术的 理沦和应用研究。
你的访问时间是 2005年 6月 26日 到 2005年 7月 1日,国际 旅费、 北京食宿费自理。如 带家属观光,请提前 与我们预定房间或旅 游。
此致
敬礼
赵彦云 教授 主任
教育部人文社科重点 研究基地:中国人民 大学应用统计科学研 究中心

_______________________________________________

Nobody of the forum members cannot translate 'dùnjì tóurù chânchú. 'Tóurù chânchú' = 'input-output' in dictionaries, but it's not helpful. Maybe will any ideas appear at our forum? (Investments efficiency? Intensification of resources development?)


Yes,they have appeared.
1. ia a misprint. The correct Hanzi is

国际 = international

2.投入产出 = input - output model (Leontieff's model in economics).

Maybe, are any ideas on meaning of the word:此致 (literally: this rite)?
Last edited by yurifink on Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Brazilian dude » Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:24 pm


I can't help thinking there's something missing when I see a kanji/hanzi like this.

Brazilian dude
Languages rule!
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Postby Flaminius » Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:24 pm

Yuri, I cannot copy your kanji's in my post (working with Mac again) but the former is "here" or "thus" and the latter is "bring," "taken to some place" or "reach." This seems to me a ritualistic end code of Chinese letters.

I would wager it means "presented thus."

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Postby yurifink » Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:39 am

Flam:

This seems to me a ritualistic end code of Chinese letters


It's very probable. A very clever trick: I never saw anything like that in other languages.

is a simplified Hanzi. S. a citation from an on-line dictionary:



Ключ:亠 Номер ключа: 8
Количество добавленных черт: 4
Число черт: 0
Пекинский диалект: CHAN3
Кантонский диалект:
Японское чтение (Он):
Японское чтение (Кун):
Корейское чтение:


Варианты иероглифа Традиционный вариант: 産
Упрощённый вариант: -
Другие написания: 產


Коды иероглифа Код иероглифа по Unicode: 4EA7
Код иероглифа по Big5:
Код иероглифа по GB2312: 327A
Код иероглифа по телеграфному коду КНР: 3934
Код иероглифа по телеграфному коду Тайваня: 0
Символьный код иероглифа:
Код иероглифа GBK:


Коды иероглифа по словарям Код иероглифа по словарю Хань Юй: 10283.030
Код иероглифа по словарю Кан Си: 0088.111
Код иероглифа по словарю Морохаши: 99999
Код иероглифа по словарю Дэ Джаён: 0000.000
Код иероглифа по словарю Мэтьюза: 0
Код иероглифа по словарю Нельсона: 0
Код иероглифа по словарю Ошанина:


Значение иероглифа на русском
производить; порождать; продукт; собственность
Значение иероглифа на английском
give birth, bring forth, produce

-------------------------------------------------------------

The simplification reform may be fruitful in many aspects, but by multiplying the Hanzi list, it complicates life to a foreign reader.

Regards.
Nothing must be done hastily but killing of fleas
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Postby M. Henri Day » Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:45 am

Yurifink, there's nothing strange about the letter of invitation received by the economist in Siberia - what is strange, however, is that he (or she) doesn't seem to relate to the context ! The letter simply states (or as simply as it is possible to be and still be polite in Chinese), that a paper that he has sent to the organisers of the 15th International Input-Output Conference, to be held in Beijing 27 June - 1 July this year, has been approved by the Technical Committee and that he is warmly invited to participate in the conference as a formal delegate from 26 June to 1 July (paying his own expenses). The letter is signed by Professor Zhao Yanyun, who is in charge of the conference. (A Chinese-language link dealing with the conference can be found here.)
此致
敬礼

安理
曾记否,到中流击水,浪遏飞舟?
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Postby Flaminius » Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:50 am

Yuri, your simplified kanji for produce can be taken as the simplification of several other kajis. Does your Russian quote refer to that?

Japanese epistolal communications can be as formal as those in Chinese. We tend to put "presented thus" after "respectful greetings" but the ideas seem the same. My guesswork was based on a solid basis, at least this time around.

Flam
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Postby WonderingSpaniard » Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:08 pm

(suspiring) How I wish I could only hint what it says in the letter...

Does anyone know of any online Chinese course? (Free of course..xD) I've just finished university and would like to go on practising the little Chinese I've learnt.

BTW, is there a shortkey for changing between Chinese and English when typing with the IME?

我谢你门。

问好,

便难西班牙人。
Traduttore, traditore.
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Postby M. Henri Day » Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:16 pm

WonderingSpaniard wrote:...

Does anyone know of any online Chinese course? (Free of course..xD) I've just finished university and would like to go on practising the little Chinese I've learnt...


Here's a link which you might find useful, WS. Good luck with your future studies !...

Henri
曾记否,到中流击水,浪遏飞舟?
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Postby yurifink » Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:41 pm

Thank you, M Henri Day! Your mention of a paper sent to the Technical Committee was like a thunderbolt from the skies. One more mystery I'm going to solve.

On a Chinese course.

There'll be soon an interactive Modern Chinese course at a web forum http://www.yazyk.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=86
If somebody wants to take part, he needs to registrate by indicating
1. His name at the forum
2.Gender

I promise my help in Russian- English translation.
Sat Abkhava from Taiwan, which will fulfill the project, is an excellent linguist. He has already finished an Interactive Wenyan Course and goes on with Traditional-Chinese Reading Course ("Robinson Crusoe in Chinese")
Last edited by yurifink on Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby yurifink » Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:03 pm

Flam[size=18]:
Yuri, your simplified kanji for produce can be taken as the simplification of several other kajis. Does your Russian quote refer to that?


I think that the traditional Hanzi exists in two slightly differing graphical versions 産 & 產

Regards
Nothing must be done hastily but killing of fleas
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Postby Flaminius » Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:17 pm

Oh, I thought 彦 (part of the sender's name) is also 产 in Simplified Kanji. It is the case in shorthands but I overlooked that they are represented by separate characters in print.

OF the two "Produce" you listed in your last post the latter is the more traditional shape, used in Taiwan. I know the former is used in Japan but don't know if it is the only country.

Flam
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Postby frank » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:21 pm

Hi WS, all,

<<<Does anyone know of any online Chinese course? (Free of course..xD) I've just finished university and would like to go on practising the little Chinese I've learnt.<<<

I hope this small selection of my bookmarks can be of any help:

Courses:
- Learning Chinese Online
[Mind you, this is in the traditional script. The same course exists in the simplified script, but i couldn't find it back]
- http://www.chinese-outpost.com/language/
(portal with a lot of links to courses, tone practice exercises, writing exercises, ...}

Dictionaries (and more):
- http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/hanzi/index.html
[a bit of theory about characters, handy when looking things up in a dictionary]
- http://zhongwen.com/

Etymology (but the fancy kind of etymology :-) ):

(During my courses the teacher gave a lot of etymologies of characters, and in one or another way it helped me to remember them!)

Others:

- alphaDictionary.com
- CCSF

All the best,

Frank
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Postby M. Henri Day » Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:49 am

Interesting sites, Frank - thanks ! And by the way, welcome to the Agora !...

Henri
曾记否,到中流击水,浪遏飞舟?
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Postby anders » Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:28 am

Dammit, I should have been working, but can't resist!

Yuri, that Ch/Ru site you used is interesting. Please tell me its address! There are of course lots of things that I don't quite understand. Why the Чёрт do they count 0 in Число черт: 0? Interesting that the word for 'character/glyph' is 'hieroglyph'!

Is словарю Хань Юй the Da Hanyu Cidian?

I think yes, because there is a story about a Russian ticket collector at the Bolshoi Theatre, understanding that the patron was a Finn, returned the 1st row ticket stub with the word "juksi", Finnish yksi = '1', having cleverly arrived at the phonetical understanding that he should try to provide a closed, front, rounded vowel ([y]) not existing in Russian.

The "key" traditional number 8 is very logical, but I like those dictionaries that are forgiving to beginners in giving possible alternative solutions. My Ch-Eng dictionary, for example, lists 产 not only under the modern number 6 for 亠, but also as 111 (立) plus 1!

AnRi, I guessed it when I read An Li! Obviously a French pronunciation. To me, it's fascinating that some customers label me AnRi, using the first two letters of my given name and surname, respectively.

For Chinese online dictionaries, my favourite is http://www.chineselanguage.org/CCDICT/.

Frank, ik ben erg blij dat je hier is gekomen.
Irren ist männlich
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