THE VATICAN

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Dr. Goodword
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THE VATICAN

Postby Dr. Goodword » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:48 pm

• Vatican •

Pronunciation: væ-ti-kên

Part of Speech: Proper noun

Meaning: The sovereign city-state ruled by the Pope of the Catholic Church.

Notes: Today's good word originated as an adjective (the Vatican City, the Vatican Hill) but today is used as a proper noun. At a time when the is being removed from country names (Ukraine, Netherlands), it seems to have survived on the Vatican, as it survives on the sun and the moon. Moreover, it does so in all languages: Città del Vaticano (Italian), Ciudad del Vaticano (Spanish), and Cité du Vatican, all of which mean "City of the Vatican".

In Play: Today Catholics and non-Catholics alike mourn the passing of a religious innovator. John Paul II was Karol Cardinal Wojtyla, the first Polish cardinal elected to the head of the Roman Catholic Church. In his homeland, he had followed in the footsteps of Stefan Cardinal Wyszynski (1901-1981) in fighting the Polish Communist Party to defend the Church's place in Polish society. The Polish Catholic Church was much more resistent to Communism than the Orthodox Church of Russia. It played a key role in the downfall of the Soviet bloc, which led to the collapse of the Soviet Union itself.

Word History: The origin of the word Vatican is shrouded in as much mystery as the place itself. It was used simply as the name of a hill in Rome, Mons Vaticanus "the Vatican Hill". The Latin word vaticinor means "foretell, prophesy" from vatis "poet, teacher, oracle". This suggests that the original hill was the location of an oracle, a place where high priests communicated with the Roman gods. Thus the name reflects a long history of contact with spiritual powers.
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Postby Brazilian dude » Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:56 pm

Or to be nitpicking: Karol Cardinal Wojtyła. It's funny that his middle name was Cardinal. Was he predestined to be a member of the clergy?

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tcward
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Postby tcward » Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:17 am

I wonder if that might not be a tradition in Poland, to change the "middle" name of an elected Cardinal to "Cardinal". Notice Karol followed in the footsteps of Stefan Cardinal Wyszynski. Seems the odds would be rather strong against that kind of coincidence.

-Tim

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Postby gailr » Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:04 am

Using "Cardinal" as a "middle" name is not restricted to Poland, but rather part of the title. Do any other agorans recognize the names of: John Henry Cardinal Newman (England, originally C of E); John Cardinal O'Connor or Richard James Cardinal Cushing, (USA)? For a complete list of the living, see Voting Cardinals.

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Re: THE VATICAN

Postby Iterman » Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:21 am

Dr. Goodword wrote: Moreover, it does so in all languages: Città del Vaticano (Italian), Ciudad del Vaticano (Spanish), and Cité du Vatican, all of which mean "City of the Vatican".


Not so in Swedish however, where it's called Vatikanstaten (NB the k) which means the State of the Vatican and where the state carries a meaning of considerably more independence than a state in the USA.
But maybe the Good Dr is refering his "all languages" to the def. article the which is true also in Swedish and is treated as usually as suffix and if we skip the "state", it becomes Vatikanen.
Beg your pardon for my poor spelling and grammer.

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Postby Apoclima » Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:39 am

Doc:
At a time when "the" is being removed from country names (Ukraine, Netherlands), it seems to have survived on "the" Vatican, as it survives on "the" sun and "the" moon. [emphasis mine]


Iterman:
But maybe the Good Dr is refering his "all languages" to the def. article the which is true also in Swedish and is treated as usually as suffix and if we skip the "state", it becomes Vatikanen.


Yes, thank you, Iterman! Vatikanen.

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Postby Brazilian dude » Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:49 am

Using "Cardinal" as a "middle" name is not restricted to Poland, but rather part of the title. Do any other agorans recognize the names of: John Henry Cardinal Newman (England, originally C of E); John Cardinal O'Connor or Richard James Cardinal Cushing, (USA)? For a complete list of the living, see Voting Cardinals.

I'm speechless. I could never have known that.

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Postby gailr » Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:46 pm

I'm speechless. I could never have known that.
Ahhh, dude, that is what you get for fixating on generic birds or chicks instead of cardinals. :)
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Postby Stargzer » Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:40 am

gailr wrote:Using "Cardinal" as a "middle" name is not restricted to Poland, but rather part of the title. Do any other agorans recognize the names of: John Henry Cardinal Newman (England, originally C of E); John Cardinal O'Connor or Richard James Cardinal Cushing, (USA)? For a complete list of the living, see Voting Cardinals.

gailr


Yes, that convention of placing the title "Cardinal" before the last name has been around as long as I can remember (which, some days, isn't all that long . . . ). It's obvious that some of the talking heads on television, or at least their script editors, are clueless.

But still, how would you like to be saddled with this moniker (from Gail's list):
Jaime Lachica Cardinal Sin, Archbishop Emeritus of Manila, Philippines. Born: 31 Aug 1928 Age: 76.61 Elevated: 24 May 1976
Regards//Larry

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Postby astrokatastro » Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:10 am

Το κράτος του Βατικανού
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Postby anders » Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:35 am

Interposing the title isn't restricted to cardinals either: Hermann Freiherr Kövess von Kövessháza, Franz Wilhelm Freiherr von Ditfurth, Heino Heinrich Graf von Flemming, and the interesting case the double titled Gustav Ignaz Graf Chorinsky Freiherr von Ledske, from just a quick search.
Irren ist männlich

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Postby astrokatastro » Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:53 am

I think that the state of Vaticanit was suppressed by the foundation of the new Italy state at the end of the 19th century.
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Postby Spiff » Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:53 am

No it wasn't, it was just restricted to a very small portion of Rome.

In Dutch it's het Vaticaan, but vaticaanstad without article.
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