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suorum & secum

A discussion of the peculiarities of languages and the differences between them.

suorum & secum

Postby William » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:13 pm

My son is studying Latin at his community college. I studied one year of Latin in high school and did not do very well with it.

My son, Ben, is doing better than I did, but he has not been able to find a translation for the two words listed in the subject.

If any member of the Agora can help us with this we would greatly appreciate it.

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Postby Bailey » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:00 am

At first I suspected it was the ingredients of hot dogs, but suorum seems to be related to mayhem, and this secum is 'to cut'. So nice to see you again William.

mark sorry,-went-for-the-laugh Bailey

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Postby Stargzer » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:16 am

Perseus has this for suorum:

suus -- of oneself, belonging to oneself, his own, her own, his, her, its, their

suôrum neut gen pl

suôrum masc gen pl

... and for secum:

sui Reflex

sêcum masc abl pl indeclform
sêcum fem abl pl indeclform
sêcum masc abl sg indeclform
sêcum fem abl sg indeclform

From the entry for sui in Lewis & Short at Perseus:

pron. reflex., of an object considered as receiving or affected by its own act, himself, herself, itself, themselves.

Perseus, provided by Tufts University, is kind of weird to navigate, and Lewis and Short (the dictionary) can be difficult to read because of all the Latin samples and references, but I find the morphological analyzer handy.

An example of Lewis and Short for suus:

sŭus , a, um (old form sos, sa, sum;

I. dat. plur. sis, Enn. ap. Fest. p. 301 Müll.; acc. sas. id. ib. p. 325 ib.; cf. Paul. ex Fest. p. 47; Schol. Pers. 1, 108; sing. sam for suam, Fest. p. 47 Müll.; so for suo, C. I. L. 5, 2007. In ante-class. verse su- with the following vowel freq. forms one syllable, Plaut. Merc. 1, 1, 48 ; id. Ps. 1, 3, 5; Ter. And. 1, 1, 68; Lucr. 1, 1022; v. Neue, Formenl. 2, 189 sqq.), pron. poss., 3d pers. [root SVA-; Sanscr. svá, own; cf. sui; Gr. seWo-, whence sphe, etc., and he; cf. heos], of or belonging to himself, herself, etc.; his own, her own, etc.; his, her, its, their; one's; hers, theirs.

I. Ordinary possessive use[b] his
, etc. (cf. the similar use of the pers. pron. sui, q. v.). [/b]

A. With antecedent in the same sentence.

1. The antecedent a subject-nominative, expressed or understood.

(a). His: Caesar copias suas divisit, Caes. B. C. 3, 97 : ille in suā sententiā perseverat, id. ib. 1, 72 : tantam habebat suarum rerum fiduciam, id. ib. 2, 37 : cum sceleris sui socios Romae reliquisset, Cic. Cat. 3, 1, 3 : cur ego non ignoscam si anteposuit suam salutem meae? id. Pis. 32, 79 ; id. Phil. 2, 18, 45; id. Mil. 10, 27; id. Fam. 15, 14, 1: Hanno praefecturam ejus (i.e. Muttinis) filio suo (Hannonis) dedit, Liv. 26, 40, 7 : imperat princeps civibus suis, Sen. Clem. 1, 16, 2 : nemo rem suam emit, id. Ben. 7, 4, 8 .--

(b). Her: mea Glycerium suos parentes repperit, Ter. And. 5, 6, 5 : utinam haec ignoraret suum patrem, id. Phorm. 5, 6, 34 : si nunc facere volt era officium suom, Plaut. Cas. 2, 8, 72 : ne eadem mulier cum suo conjuge honestissimum adulescentem oppressisse videatur, Cic. Cael. 32, 78 : si omnibus suis copiis excellentem virum res publica armasset, id. Phil. 13, 16, 32 .--

(g). Its: omne animal, simul et ortum est, et se ipsum et omnes partes suas diligit, Cic. Fin. 2, 11, 33 : cum mea domus ardore suo deflagrationem Italiae toti minaretur, id. Planc. 40, 95 .--

(d). Their: (legiones) si consulem suum reliquerunt, vituperandae sunt Cic. Phil. 5, 2, 4: mittent aliquem de suo numero, id. ib. 11, 10, 25 : rationem illi sententiae suae non fere reddebant, id. Tusc. 1, 17, 38 : qui agellos suos redimere a piratis solebant, id. Verr. 2, 3, 37, § 85 : edicunt ut ad suum vestitum senatores redirent, id. Sest. 14, 32 : suis finibus eos prohibent, Caes. B. G. 1, 1 : Allobrogibus sese persuasuros existimabant ut per suos (Allobrogum) fines eos (Helvetios) ire paterentur, id. id. 1, 6; and distributively: ac naves onerariae LXIII. in portu expugnatae, quaedam cum suis oneribus, frumento, armis, aere, etc., some with their several cargoes, Liv. 26, 47, 9 .--

I told you it's brutal! I bolded the English definition parts. The rest consists of samples, some of which are links to futher analysis of the forms.

The URL for the Perseus Word Study Tool Morphological Analyses for Inflected Latin Words is (get ready!): ... ormentry=0

That can get you started. If you go in from the main page for Perseus, you have to select Classics in the left column, then Tools on the second line of the next page, then Dictionary Entry Lookup on the next page, then change the "in "drop-box from Greek to Latin to search for a word.

If it doesn't find the word itself in the dictionary but thinks it's an inflected form, it will let you search for possible dictionary forms of the word. Such was the case for suorum.

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Postby Audiendus » Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:56 am

I know this is a dead thread, but I notice that nobody has actually answered the question of what secum means. It means "with him/her/it/them(self/selves)", i.e. with + reflexive pronoun. For example:

Magister libros secum portat. (The teacher carries the books with him.)
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Postby Stargzer » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:23 am

Well, I had the se part from sui, I just didn't add the cum (with) to it.

Bless me, Father, for I've not thinned; it's been 40 years since high school Latin II.

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
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