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Latin's descendants

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Postby LukeJavan8 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:46 pm

I really appreciate your analogy of language to past
migrations of humans. I follow the genome project in
National Geographic Mag (which was founded on this date
in 1888), so I appreciate the similarity to which you refer.
You are correct in the remark about DNA. Though it has
been known, it has not been that studied without modern
science.

I too concur that language is prone to modification.
The image of Latin breaking into the various Romance
languages is sharp. Pockets of dialects even within each
breakup daughter language still exist. Similar to the
mini-states of Europe still existant from old empires:
Luxembourg, Liechtenstein.
Very nice comparison,Beck.
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Postby beck123 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:24 pm

And founded with Alexander Graham Bell's money, in fact.

Bell had two daughters, one of whom married a Grosvener (and if you follow NG, you'll recognize that name) and the other David Fairchild, a well-known biologist and founder of the early-20th-Century seed importation program in the U.S. The Fairchilds (Fairchildren?) had a son, Graham Bell ("Sandy") Fairchild, who became an entomologist, working most of his life in Panama. Sandy, who worked in retirement at the University of Florida, was a mentor, colleague, and friend of mine until his death in the 1990s.

Of course, that doesn't make me anything special, but your mention of NG brought an old friend to mind.
Beck

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Postby beck123 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:47 pm

There is a tremendous breaking-up of English today, never mind Latin 1500 years ago: it just doesn't reach the textbooks. And it's inevitable, so we may as well revel in it. Just imagine John Kerry trying to have a conversation with an inner-city kid who was raised speaking "ebonics" (for lack of a better term.) Like it or not, they're both speaking English - just ask them. I've sat in a bar with an Australian, and it was an unsuccessful effort to understand the most of what he said. He was speaking English, too.

What is a "New York accent" today? What we're told is a New York accent is the way most white New Yorkers spoke 60 years ago. If as much as five or 10 percent of New Yorkers speak that way today, I'd be surprised. I don't think that the Indian or Malaysian or Pakistani or Puertorican populations in NYC would say, "Yo, wadda youse guys doin'?"

My point is that the break-up that we saw with Latin when Rome dominated the western world is exactly what we're seeing with English today. It's evolutionary, it can't be stopped, and it's marvelous to see!
Beck

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Postby LukeJavan8 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:32 pm

[quote="beck123"]And founded with Alexander Graham Bell's money, in fact.

Bell had two daughters, one of whom married a Grosvener (and if you follow NG, you'll recognize that name) and the other David Fairchild, a well-known biologist and founder of the early-20th-Century seed importation program in the U.S. The Fairchilds (Fairchildren?) had a son, Graham Bell ("Sandy") Fairchild, who became an entomologist, working most of his life in Panama. Sandy, who worked in retirement at the University of Florida, was a mentor, colleague, and friend of mine until his death in the 1990s.

Of course, that doesn't make me anything special, but your mention of NG brought an old friend to mind.[/quote]



How Fascinating!
Yes I knew about Grosvenor. I once knew one of the
"Fairchildren", who was in a similar situation to the one
you mention: might have been a relative.
Nat Geo is a favorite of mine. I get about emails a month
from them as well. The photography is eminently
resplendant. Glad you had some good memories. These
sites do this for us.
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Postby LukeJavan8 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:38 pm

[quote="beck123"]There is a tremendous breaking-up of English [i]today[/i], never mind Latin 1500 years ago: it just doesn't reach the textbooks. And it's inevitable, so we may as well revel in it. Just imagine John Kerry trying to have a conversation with an inner-city kid who was raised speaking "ebonics" (for lack of a better term.) Like it or not, they're both speaking English - just ask them. I've sat in a bar with an Australian, and it was an unsuccessful effort to understand the most of what he said. He was speaking English, too.

What is a "New York accent" today? What we're told is a New York accent is the way most white New Yorkers spoke 60 years ago. If as much as five or 10 percent of New Yorkers speak that way today, I'd be surprised. I don't think that the Indian or Malaysian or Pakistani or Puertorican populations in NYC would say, "Yo, wadda youse guys doin'?"

My point is that the break-up that we saw with Latin when Rome dominated the western world is exactly what we're seeing with English today. It's evolutionary, it can't be stopped, and it's marvelous to see![/quote]





TOTALLY AGREE:
Once, while in Plymouth, England, I struck up a conversation
with a group of school boys. I had a million questions,
being a school teacher, as did they. They would then go
off on something which amused them, and I could not
understand a word any of them said. Then they would come back to "English" from "English" so I could understand. What an episode that was. I've never forgotten them.
I am totally acquainted with 'ebonics": "yu be goin."

There was story years back, when we were hosting a
number of "reservation sites" for hotels here in town, that
the reason they were all here: (Holiday Inn, Hyatt,etc.)
was that our "accent" was the easiest for people all over
to understand. Have no idea how true that is, but it
was around for awhile.

A point I madea before, however, to post-script yours,
is that - do you think the media will break down the
differences in English: we all hear each other speaking
and it will make us similar rather than different???
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Postby beck123 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:16 pm

The media? Not a chance of them breaking down the regional differences in our language. We've had voice-capable media for almost 100 years, and it hasn't done a thing to erase regionalism. In Latin America, a native speaker can tell what part of which country another native speaker is from, based on the way the language is spoken. There are hundreds of variations, just as there are in English. "Hi-ever," (he said, quoting a person he head speaking today) the written word - newspapers, books, etc, - are identical throughout the region.

I believe the talk media serve the same purpose as those newspapers, providing a common language, understood by all and probably spoken by nobody in real conversation.
Beck

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Postby sluggo » Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:58 pm

i've gotta disagree and land somewhere in between. To the extent that media becomes/has become ubiquitous, I believe it does smooth out some regionalism. It doesn't wipe it out, thankfully --we still generally retain the patterns of the environment of our early childhoods-- but the more we hear of the "standard American English" of the broadcast voice (a soft midwestern flavor), those environments themselves are smoothed about the edges.

I'd also point out that we already get new forms and developments directly from media-- witness the increasing tendency for the general population to pronounce the word route as if it were "rout", for example, or the term walk-off, both from spots broadcasts, and neither of which development (I think) would otherwise exist.
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Postby Slava » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:22 pm

sluggo wrote:I'd also point out that we already get new forms and developments directly from media-- witness the increasing tendency for the general population to pronounce the word route as if it were "rout", for example, or the term walk-off, both from spots broadcasts, and neither of which development (I think) would otherwise exist.
How do you get the route/rout pronunciation as coming from the media? I've always said root, but the locals here have always said rout, at least since my family moved here in '68. It's much like the awnt/ant cOntroversy/contrOversy.
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Postby LukeJavan8 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:23 pm

Interesting opinions both ways. This really is fascinating.
Route is definitely "rout" here, especially in postal
RFD's, though they are now "streets" as in 732nd Street
in some far-out county halfway to the Pacific Ocean.
Your comment about 'soft-midwestern' sort of
augments what I was saying here or elsewhere
concerning the hotel reservation sites here: (of which
we abound), easy to understand everywhere in the
country.
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Postby sluggo » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:55 am

Slava wrote:How do you get the route/rout pronunciation as coming from the media? I've always said root, but the locals here have always said rout, at least since my family moved here in '68. It's much like the awnt/ant cOntroversy/contrOversy.


A personal theory but I believe route > rout comes from the NFL announcers who insist on saying it that way, and have occasion to (mis)use the word a hundred times every broadcast. I can remember when route was route. I also blame Miller Lite Beer commercials at least partly for the popular tendency to conflate less with fewer ("one-third less calories (arrgh) than their regular beer").

Aggh! Embarrassing typo-- I meant 'sports broadcasts', not 'spots broadcasts'. The eyes are goin'... :shock:

Contróversy in my experience has always been a British pronunciation.
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Postby LukeJavan8 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:19 pm

I love the British "con[b]tro[/b]versy". They have a
couple other words they do that accent thing to.
Miller Beer: I remember catching that. Not too long
ago some TV anchor mentioned that there were
"Less people at today's Tea Party" than some previous
one. Your aggh became a pirate's Arggh for me.
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Postby LukeJavan8 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:21 pm

Ok, I've tried twice to embolden the
"tro" in controversy: you see my results above. What
am I not doing?

I highlight it and click the B. and that is what happens.
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Postby sluggo » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:42 pm

I dunno- everything looks right.

Have you paid the site embolden fee? Is your computer stocked up with embolding fluid?

:lol:
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Postby LukeJavan8 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:59 pm

In your post above the TRO of controvery is dark black.
On mine is says con[b]tro[b]versy.

The [b]'s are there on my screen/copy. Isn't that
how they appear to you???
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Postby LukeJavan8 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:00 pm

I haven't paid any fees as yet. Remember I live in one
of the "istans". So you have to be careful, we are not
"too with it". Who do I pay? You?
Do you take: cash
plastic
bullion
krugerrands
i.o.u 's???????
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