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Parca

A discussion of the peculiarities of languages and the differences between them.

Postby Brazilian dude » Sat May 14, 2005 11:15 am

Skuld

I couldn't help thinking of guilt when I saw this, cf. German Schuld, Dutch schuld, Swedish skuld, Danish skyld.

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Postby Apoclima » Sat May 14, 2005 3:54 pm

Ilka:
However, Wikipedia claims parcae means "the sparing ones" in Latin, which is related to parsimonious.


Ilka:
But remember the three Weird Sisters in Macbeth?


Yes, a classical allusion!

Mediterranean

Oh, if one day on account of my faults
Death comes looking for me.
Push my boat into the sea
With an autumnal Easterly
And let the wind storm
Tear apart the white wings.

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Postby Apoclima » Sat May 14, 2005 4:11 pm

Although I have translated "parca" as "death" in these poems, there is no real reason not to translate them as "fate" or "the ultimate fate." "Death" like "muerte" does not capture the feeling of "fate" or "fateful" like "parca" does.

Of course, the wonder to me of (good) poetry is the sublties of meaning and suggestion and allusion by the use of different associations contained in words. What I call ambiguities.

I remember that uncronopio disagreed with me that good poetry was ambiguous. He made the point that it was clarity that made it good. I think that it is both, but without ambiguity, allusion and suggestion, it is one-dimensional.

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Postby Ilka » Sat May 14, 2005 4:47 pm

Of course, the wonder to me of (good) poetry is the subtleties of meaning and suggestion and allusion by the use of different associations contained in words.

To me, every word has meanings, nuances and associations that give it it's flavor, much like different overtones give an musical instrument its particular timbre. That's why sometimes "look for" is better than "search" or "autumn" better than "fall".

And that's what makes translation of poetry so difficult. For example, in English we have two words for what is above -- sky and heaven. In German, there is only one -- Himmel. But Himmel carries with it the idea of a God up above, a concept that "sky" does not contain.

Thanks for the excellent translation. I was unsure of the meaning of "para mi mal".

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Postby Apoclima » Sat May 14, 2005 11:36 pm

I think that "para mi mal," literally, "for my bad" could be translated any where from "because of my evil" to "on account of my sickness." I tried to be inclusive and not specific.

Thanks for the compliment, Ilka, but translation of a poem is not so much translating as it is writing in another language just one of the poems that you see in the original.

If you try very hard, maybe you can get a few more of the senses of the original, but really, it is writing a new poem.

(Good to hear from you, by the way!)

Ilka:
To me, every word has meanings, nuances and associations that give it it's flavor, much like different overtones give an musical instrument its particular timbre. That's why sometimes "look for" is better than "search" or "autumn" better than "fall".


Yes!

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Postby Brazilian dude » Sun May 15, 2005 1:15 am

Ay, si un día para mi mal
viene a buscarme la parca.
Empujad al mar mi barca
con un levante otoñal
y dejad que el temporal
desguace sus alas blancas.

Para mi mal is something more like to my disgrace.

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Postby uncronopio » Sun May 15, 2005 2:14 am

Brazilian dude is in the right track. It is something like 'to my disgrace' or 'to my detriment' but never like "because of my evil'. It is para not por.

I remember that uncronopio disagreed with me that good poetry was ambiguous. He made the point that it was clarity that made it good. I think that it is both, but without ambiguity, allusion and suggestion, it is one-dimensional.

Yes, I sort of agree with you this time.
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Postby Apoclima » Sun May 15, 2005 3:15 am

I thought that would haunt you out, uncronopio!

"No me matan para mi mal!"

"No me matan por mi mal!"

I see that! Death comes looking for my disgrace! It is a disgrace that death comes looking for me, because I have faults: criminality, sickness, old age, depression, debt, or tragedy!

I wasn't trying to give the "para" the meaning of "por," but death comes looking, "to my disgrace," on account of the flaw that I have: ie mortality!

Death likes truth; she unbinds the truth!

A good criticism! Thanks, BD and uncronopio!

Please feel free, both of you, to translate all of the verse to your liking!

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Postby Apoclima » Sun May 15, 2005 5:53 am

"If one day, to my disgrace,
Death comes looking for me"

"Si un día a mi mal..."

"Si un día para mi mal.."

Are these the same?

Hang on here!

'Si la parca viene a buscarme...para mi mal'

'Si la parca viene a buscarme...a mi mal'

"Buscar"cannot take "para" or "a" as a connecting preposition, except if it is a "personal" "a."

"If one day to hurt me,
Death comes looking."

NO!

Does death hurt? Isn't it the flaw (mortality) of the fisherman the reason that death will be looking for him? Why would death be only an added detriment?

Looking forward to your translations!

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Postby Brazilian dude » Sun May 15, 2005 11:03 am

I don't think the version with a is right, but I can't say why.

I don't think a new translation is necessary, yours is excellent.

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Postby uncronopio » Sun May 15, 2005 8:51 pm

Ditto. Excellent work!
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Postby Apoclima » Mon May 16, 2005 4:58 pm

OK, thanks, but it would be very different, I am sure, if I "knew" the poet from a collection of his other poems.

Thanks for being so understanding!

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Postby tcward » Mon May 16, 2005 9:36 pm

An interesting last minute find... and possible relationship after all...?

parch
1246, possibly from M.E. perchen, var. of perishen "to perish."


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Postby Apoclima » Tue May 17, 2005 7:31 am

perish Look up perish at Dictionary.com
c.1250, from periss- prp. stem of O.Fr. perir, from L. perire "to be lost, perish," lit. "to go through," from per- "through, completely, to destruction" + ire "to go."


perish

perɘ-1

By the way, I found the complete poem here.

And a parody of it here.

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Postby yurifink » Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:48 pm

I like very much Mediterráneo by Juan Manuel Serrat.
Here's my translation into Russian:

_______________________________________________

Ah, esli odnazhdy gore
Na menja natravit Parku,
Tolknite s berega barku
Pod veter osennij v more!
Bushujut tam volny v spore,
Razbilasja lodka! Ne zhalko
.

_______________________________________________

Regards.
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