Alphadictionary.com

Our Sponsors

Technical Translation
Website Translation Clip Art
 

ENDEAVOR

Use this forum to discuss past Good Words.

Re: ENDEAVOR

Postby Philip Hudson » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:23 pm

Nelson and the battle of Trafalgar do not seem parochial to me. I have visited your fair city several times and have been aboard the HMS Victory on two occasions. My Hudson ancestors were English seafaring men and women. My ancestor Heindrick Heardson was president of the Muscovy Trading Company in the late 1500s. The next generation changed their name to Hudson. Henry Hudson the explorer was a descendant of Heindrick Heradson and thus a distant cousin of mine. Henry Hudson's wife was a seafaring woman, traveling to India to buy and sell. She became a notable and wealthy woman doing this "man's" job.
It is dark at night, but the Sun will come up and then we can see.
Philip Hudson
Grand Panjandrum
 
Posts: 1705
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:41 am
Location: Texas

Re: ENDEAVOR

Postby misterdoe » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:56 pm

MTC just asked about a historical "analog or analogue." Sometimes when I see a word spelled this way, with the "extra letters," I find myself mentally pronouncing it differently (a-nal-o-gue, pro-gram-mee). Yet the other day when I was playing Text Twist on my computer and missed a puzzle because the Bingo Word was "demagog," I yelled at the game for being silly, since that's not the usual spelling. :?
misterdoe
Lexiterian
 
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:21 am
Location: New York City area

Re: ENDEAVOR

Postby Slava » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:40 pm

As far as spelling goes, and having a "useless" u, why don't we get rid of the a, also? It serves no purpose, does it?
Life is like playing chess with chessmen who each have thoughts and feelings and motives of their own.
User avatar
Slava
Grand Panjandrum
 
Posts: 4565
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:31 am
Location: Finger Lakes, NY

Re: ENDEAVOR

Postby Perry Lassiter » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:28 pm

Well yeah! Demagogue is three syllables, albeit the middle syllable is a schwa. Maybe English needs a 27th letter, schwa, to replace all those sounds from whatever letters.
pl
Perry Lassiter
Grand Panjandrum
 
Posts: 2275
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:41 pm
Location: RUSTON, LA

Re: ENDEAVOR

Postby gailr » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:48 pm

call_copse wrote:...
Interestingly the '-ettes' suffix and similar would be frowned on by anyone bothered about such things in this locale, due to the diminutive association.
...
The public tide is turning on that here, too. It's no longer considered an astonishing novelty to see the "Weaker Sex" bravely attempting basketball, or police work, or surgery. Using the diminutive suffix or the faux-courteous "Lady-[insert endeavor here]" is starting to look like the patronizing reaction that it was (however unintentionally).

Perry wrote:Women's basketball teams still play man-to-man defense!
Yes they do. And coaches cutting to the chase say, "Listen up you guys!" :D

I enjoy these discussions with all you guys, whatever your biological designations.
User avatar
gailr
Grand Panjandrum
 
Posts: 1945
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:40 am

Re: ENDEAVOR

Postby call_copse » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:54 am

Philip Hudson wrote:Nelson and the battle of Trafalgar do not seem parochial to me. I have visited your fair city several times and have been aboard the HMS Victory on two occasions. My Hudson ancestors were English seafaring men and women. My ancestor Heindrick Heardson was president of the Muscovy Trading Company in the late 1500s. The next generation changed their name to Hudson. Henry Hudson the explorer was a descendant of Heindrick Heradson and thus a distant cousin of mine. Henry Hudson's wife was a seafaring woman, traveling to India to buy and sell. She became a notable and wealthy woman doing this "man's" job.


You are simply not familiar with 'England expects...' then? I guess for us that is so familiar it is like 'an eye for an eye' or 'I have a dream'. I'd regard it as the most famous naval signal ever made at a minimum.
Iain
User avatar
call_copse
Lexiterian
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:42 am
Location: Southampton

Re: ENDEAVOR

Postby Perry Lassiter » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:53 pm

Sounds fscinating. Can you elucidate on "England expects"?
pl
Perry Lassiter
Grand Panjandrum
 
Posts: 2275
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:41 pm
Location: RUSTON, LA

Re: ENDEAVOR

Postby call_copse » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:22 am

I linked the wiki entry in a prior comment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_ex ... o_his_duty

Basically it was the signal Nelson sent prior to the Battle of Trafalgar to get the sailors going. His subsequent death and victory against the odds, meaning Britain controlled European waters for many years, has as wikipedia puts it 'led to the phrase becoming embedded in the English psyche'. You'd quote it if you wanted all present to stand stiffly to attention and salute, misty eyed, that sort of thing. It's been copied by everyone including Americans, hence I thought it likely to be familiar.

Like you lot chanting 'USA! USA!' mayhap, but a little more understated as befits the British character.
Iain
User avatar
call_copse
Lexiterian
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:42 am
Location: Southampton

Re: ENDEAVOR

Postby MTC » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:14 am

Very apt, I thought, that call_copse, an Englishman, expects Philip, an American, to understand "England expects." But now that I have read the Wikipedia entry, I wonder how this seismic phrase has escaped my--or anyone's-- notice. If "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery," then "England expects" has been sincerely flattered by many imitators, including Napoleon, the U.S. Navy, and Admiral Togo.

Even more interesting, the entire sentence, "England expects every man will do his duty," was communicated by coded signal flags--not words. The world (except for naval veterans) remembers the words, not the flags.

Furthermore, Admiral Nelson's original phrasing of "England confides" was wisely edited by Nelson's signal officer, Lieutenant (Lef'-ten-ant) John Pasco, to "England expects," giving Nelson's words the right historic ring. It's hard to imagine eyes misting or knees weakening with "England confides." Saved by the bell!
MTC
Grand Panjandrum
 
Posts: 1066
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:40 am
Location: Pasadena

Re: ENDEAVOR

Postby Philip Hudson » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:53 pm

Of course I know "England expects every man will do his duty."
Please pardon my density. I couldn't complete "England expects ..." and perhaps should have been able to. If I do penance by singing "Rule, Britannia" twenty times am I pardoned?
It is dark at night, but the Sun will come up and then we can see.
Philip Hudson
Grand Panjandrum
 
Posts: 1705
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:41 am
Location: Texas

Re: ENDEAVOR

Postby Slava » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:00 pm

Various comments:

Isn't "you lot" generally considered dismissive and somewhat rude?
Not saved by the bell, but by the flag. :)
As for things Americans stand up and respect, how about "Ask not..."? Perhaps even related to "England expects."
How does "eye for an eye" fit in with these concepts? Isn't it biblical?
Life is like playing chess with chessmen who each have thoughts and feelings and motives of their own.
User avatar
Slava
Grand Panjandrum
 
Posts: 4565
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:31 am
Location: Finger Lakes, NY

Re: ENDEAVOR

Postby misterdoe » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:12 pm

I always thought "you lot" was the British version of "y'all." :?
misterdoe
Lexiterian
 
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:21 am
Location: New York City area

Re: ENDEAVOR

Postby Perry Lassiter » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:36 pm

I think so, y'all or youse guys.

An eye for an eye in modern terms points to simple revenge or getting even. Thus the phrase is shorthand for the concept.

The Biblical origin is different and twofold. Originally it was part of the Mosaic law to limit reveng. With no police force, when you hurt or killed someone, it was obligatory for the closest residents to correct the situation by taking revenge. Often if someone gouged out an eye, the family might kill him. The new law limited punishment to being equal to the crime.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus radicalized the response to the eaully famous concept of turning the other cheek.
pl
Perry Lassiter
Grand Panjandrum
 
Posts: 2275
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:41 pm
Location: RUSTON, LA

Re: ENDEAVOR

Postby Slava » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:52 pm

Perry Lassiter wrote:I think so, y'all or youse guys.
I don't think even these two are equal in meaning.

An eye for an eye in modern terms points to simple revenge or getting even. Thus the phrase is shorthand for the concept.
Which is why I question how it belongs in a list of famous quotations referred to by either their first words or a key phrase: England expects, Ask not, I have a dream.
it was obligatory for the closest residents to correct the situation by taking revenge.
"Residents"? Perhaps "relatives" is the word?
Life is like playing chess with chessmen who each have thoughts and feelings and motives of their own.
User avatar
Slava
Grand Panjandrum
 
Posts: 4565
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:31 am
Location: Finger Lakes, NY

Re: ENDEAVOR

Postby Perry Lassiter » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:03 pm

Correct. Relatives.

Also, I went to the wiki link and noticed the last flag, Y, completing the word duty. Beneath it is the number 24, not 25 as I would expect. Was the alphabet shorter in 1805, or is this an uncaught error?
pl
Perry Lassiter
Grand Panjandrum
 
Posts: 2275
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:41 pm
Location: RUSTON, LA

PreviousNext

Return to Good Word Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 2 guests