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¿El víctima?

A discussion of the peculiarities of languages and the differences between them.

¿El víctima?

Postby Brazilian dude » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:59 pm

Nombre del víctima: Ka-lel
Papá famoso: Nicolas Cage
Tentativamente, la precuela que Hollywood planeaba hacer sobre Superman, llevaba por título Ka-lel: Genesis Of Superman. Y si recuerdan, en algún momento de su carrera, Nic Cage acarició el sueño de interpretar al súperheroe por largo rato... ¿De ahí vendrá la inspiración?


Nombre del víctima: Anuar
Mamá famosa: Victoria Ruffo
Entendemos, el papá es de origen árabe y el nombre allá es muy común y bonito, pero pónganse en los pies del niño... ¿qué va a pasar cuando vaya a la escuela primaria y todos sus compañeritos se empiecen a burlar de su nombre y se pongan a jugar con las tres primeras letras de éste?

http://www.univision.com/content/conten ... cid=713978

I'm speechless! Víctima is always feminine no matter what the sex of the victim is. Pretty soon they'll start saying el persona (or even worse el persono when it refers to a man.

Wow! Google has 1400 pages in Spanish for el víctima. What's going on? This is worse than preferir sobre.

What the heck! In Portuguese too?
O vítima os teria flagrado retirando madeira em suas terra e os denunciou.
“Dez” continua foragido. No dia do crime “Renegado” invadiu a casa da vitima ...

Vitima da Crise
Soube por aqui que o Vítima da Crise foi referido na revista Única do Expresso.
Apesar de ter comprado o habitual calhamaço ao fim de semana para a habitual ...

O vítima, um homem, não tinha sido identificada pela Polícia Militar do município
nem pela Polícia Rodoviária Federal até o fechamento desta edição. ...

I'd better go lie down.

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Re: ¿El víctima?

Postby Stargzer » Sun Oct 16, 2005 6:39 am

Brazilian dude wrote: . . .

http://www.univision.com/content/conten ... cid=713978

I'm speechless! Víctima is always feminine no matter what the sex of the victim is. Pretty soon they'll start saying el persona (or even worse el persono when it refers to a man.

Wow! Google has 1400 pages in Spanish for el víctima. What's going on? This is worse than preferir sobre.

What the heck! In Portuguese too?
. . . I'd better go lie down.

Brazilian dude


Well, your first link is Univision. Isn't that a US station? Maybe their Spanish speakers or translators just aren't up to snuff! :D

Words like that are take a bit odd for an English speaker. Even in French a victim is always une victime. When one has three genders to work with, like Latin and English, the concept of using feminine noun for a masculine person takes some getting used to.
Regards//Larry

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Postby Brazilian dude » Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:33 pm

Oh, sorry Larry, not until today did I see your post. Thanks for posting.

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Postby M. Henri Day » Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:42 am

Not only victims, but also professors have been victims of this gender slippage. «Professor» is of masculine gender, whatever the gender of individual professors may be, but Google gives 501000 responses for a search with «professor emerita» (26600000 for one with «professor emeritus»). The same people who argue that gender is a social construct seem to believe that it is biological when it comes to languages. Go figure !...

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Postby badandy » Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:38 pm

The same people who argue that gender is a social construct seem to believe that it is biological when it comes to languages.

ha!
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Postby M. Henri Day » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:50 am

badandy wrote:...

ha!


Are you laughing with me, or at me, badandy ? I'm always the last to know....

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Postby uncronopio » Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:09 pm

Brazilian dude, you worry for a meager 1,400 hits? Have a look in Google for la primer. Argh! Almost a million hits!
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Postby Brazilian dude » Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:46 am

Altohugh I don't use it, Andrés Bello says it's correct to use la primer before feminine nouns. I'll transcribe the passage for you:

No siempre que la apócope tiene cabida es indispensable hacer uso de ella. Son necesarias las apócopes un, algún, ningún, buen, mal. La deprimero es necesaria en la terminación masculina, y arbitraria, aunque de poco uso, en la femenina: el primer capítulo; la primera victoria o la primer victoria. La de tercero y postrero es arbitraria en ambas terminaciones, aunque lo más usual es apocopar la masculina y no la femenina: el tercer día, la tercera jornada, la postrera palabra.


I understand primer before feminine nouns is widely used in Argentina.

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Postby uncronopio » Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:12 pm

Interestingly enough, Andrés Bello used "la primer" only once in Gramática: gramática de la lengua castellana destinada al uso de los americanos published in 1859, exactly in the paragraph that you are quoting. All the other times he uses "la primera".

Manuel Seco (in Diccionario de dudas Manuel Seco de la Real Academia Española) says that "A veces se presenta también la apócope ante nombre femenino (la primer vez); pero no es uso normal, a pesar de estar bastante atestiguado literariamente..."

I think that the use of "la primer" is probably a left over from older Spanish (although I am not sure about this). Latin American Spanish still maintains some very old forms, particularly in Argentina. A very interesting and funny example of the diferences between Argentinian Spanish and Iberian Spanish is this small dictionary.

Anyway, I still dislike "la primer", which I heard for the first time while I was living in Argentina over twenty years ago.
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Postby Brazilian dude » Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:56 pm

Lo que he hallado a respecto de la primer en el Diccionario Panhispánico de Dudas, ahora disponible gratuitamente en línea.

4. Los ordinales primero y tercero se apocopan en las formas primer y tercer cuando preceden a un sustantivo masculino, aunque entre ambos se interponga otra palabra; esta apócope también se produce cuando forman parte de ordinales compuestos: el primer ministro, mi tercer gran amor; el vigesimoprimer aniversario. La apócope es opcional si el ordinal aparece antepuesto y coordinado con otro adjetivo: mi primero y último amor o mi primer y último amor. Constituye un arcaísmo, que debe evitarse en el habla culta actual, la apócope de estos ordinales ante sustantivos femeninos: la primer vez, la tercer casa.


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