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Postby anders » Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:09 pm

Strange workings. I view Garzo's example letter just as a square, but when copying it into a Word document, I see the horizontally overstruck h.

Another format thing: when copying like that, the text is surrounded by boxes, and it isn't intuitive how to convert it to normal text. For some reason, prehaps only known to Bill G., some lines refuse to be changed, unless I don't include the paragraph mark in what I want to change. I think.

On number of strokes, I recently found a reference to a Japanes name, clearly outperforming the 4 dragons. I'll tell you more when I retrieve it.

And for characters like hentaikana, and lots of silly (but sometimes clever and really funny) proposed characters for chemical elements in Japanese, and other stuff, try this site, which I stumbled on when trying to find out the size and price of the 康熙字典.
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Postby Apoclima » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:22 pm

Thank for your help, Garzo! I'll try to figure it out!

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Postby Garzo » Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:51 pm

I wonder, Anders, if you happen to be using Microsoft Internet Explorer. I confess that I too am guilty of that sin. Other browsers work hard to find a font that will display any given piece of text, but MSIE doesn't bother. It doesn't matter how many fonts you have: it's their range that counts. If you have MSIE and a font like Arial Unicode MS (it's not perfect, but generally does the job), then open the Tools menu of IE and select Internet Options. A wee tool box should open; select Fonts from the bottom, and set the font to something with a good range (like Arial Unicode MS). Other fonts, like Code2000/2001 and Gentium, can do as good if not better job.

The next question is about what this site can and cannot do. I cannot get the IPA block to display at all.
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Postby tcward » Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:38 pm

anders wrote:Strange workings. I view Garzo's example letter just as a square, but when copying it into a Word document, I see the horizontally overstruck h.

Another format thing: when copying like that, the text is surrounded by boxes, and it isn't intuitive how to convert it to normal text. For some reason, prehaps only known to Bill G., some lines refuse to be changed, unless I don't include the paragraph mark in what I want to change. I think.


When copying from a website into a Word document, Word automatically presumes that you would like to keep the text in a "frame" or "table", similar to how it was presented on the website.

[Note: This seems to be a problem only when copying and pasting from Internet Explorer into Word. This did not happen for me just now, testing with the Mozilla Firefox browser.]

You should be able to work around this issue by using the Edit > Paste Special... menu item, and selecting the 'Unformatted Unicode text' option.

-Tim
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Postby KatyBr » Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:28 pm

just that simple! :lol:


uh, yup, sure I'll get right on that...

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Postby M. Henri Day » Sat Mar 05, 2005 5:34 pm

Garzo wrote:I'm not sure exactly what you would like to do with Unicode, but the basic idea is this:
  1. Find the character you want.
  2. Use characters with lower Unicode numbers (Greek is easier to render than Ugaritic!).
  3. Find the decimal number that accompanies the character (do not use the hexadecimal numbers at the ends of rows and tops of columns).
  4. Enter the text as
    Code: Select all
    &#n;
    (where n is the Unicode number).
  5. In a preview, all that code should render as the character if the font/browser/website can cope with it.
...

Garzo, I should very much like to be able to reproduce the Czech «r-caron» («r» with an open half moon above, the Czech equivalent to the Polish «rz»). Finding the uppercase letter as no 344 and the lower case as 345 in the Unicode list, I attempted to follow your instructions, writing «&#344» and «&#345», but alas, instead of producing the desired letters, I got out precisely what I put in. Am I missing something entirely obvious to the more adequately equipped ? Have you any suggestions for a left-behind child ?...

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Postby Garzo » Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:24 am

Are you looking for Ř and ř?

The semicolon on the end is vital.

I think the tech-term is escape coding. The & and ; are the brackets to surround the code. There are three ways of entering the code, of which this site uses the second:
  • Human compatible code: à producing à
  • Decimal code preceded by #: à producing à
  • Hexadecimal code preceded by #: &#xxeoo; producing &#xxe00;

As you can see, only the decimal codes work here.
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Postby M. Henri Day » Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:58 am

Ř, ř ! By God [he's] got it ! Thanks a lot, Garzo - I had indeed, failed to observe the semicolon after the Unicode number ! As a matter of fact, we discussed this encoding problem in some detail on the other forum, without coming to a solution. Again, much thanks !...

But like the fisherman's wife, I'm never satisfied - do you have any suggestions as to how I can employ this device in writing Word™ documents or in sending email messages ? In writing «š», for example, I use «Alt + 0154», which works both here on the Agora and for the purposes mentioned above, but in the last two situations this procedure doesn't seem to work for, e.g., «ř». Any help you can extend me would be most appreciated !...

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Postby tcward » Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:17 pm

I think the difference is the Š and š are encoded into the extended character set available to the OS, whereas the Ř and the ř are strictly available through Unicode.

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Postby KatyBr » Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:27 pm

Garzo wrote:The semicolon on the end is vital.

I think the tech-term is escape coding.


Hmmmmm, so that's what it is called. I recently started using it in tables for breaks between my links on my webpages. Thanks Garzo!

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Postby anders » Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:34 pm

I force Unicode viewing, but I still don't see the r's in MS Explorer, unless I copy them to Word.

But then again, when I write this reply and look at the Topic Review, they're all there, capital and lower case s and r with haceks. Why can't the posts use the same font as the review?
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Postby M. Henri Day » Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:11 am

Anders, of course, is right ; I can resolve my difficulties in writing «Ř» and «ř» into Word documents by cutting and pasting, now that, with Garzo's aid, I have a text from which to copy them - viz, messages posted to this thread. Having to do so is a bit cumbersome, but certainly better than the alternative, and is, in fact, what I do when writing Chinese or Japanese graphs, as I don't have access to a programme that allows me to write them directly from my keyboard....

But I have - or rather my daughter Kikutsubo (菊壺 - I think the name reads rather nicely in Chinese as well !) has - another problem which can be subsumed under the topic of this thread : she is unable to read Chinese/Japanese graphs contained in attachments to messages I send her on her Mac. Never having used one, I am totally unfamiliar with this computer and its software, but I find it difficult to believe that the problem is unamenable to solution. Is there some simple way, corresponding perhaps to changing settings under «View» and «Encoding» from, in my case ,«Western European (ISO)» to, e g, «Unicode (UTF-8)» on my PC ,to modify the Mac settings so that such graphs maintain their legibility ? I shall be eternally - or so near as never mind - grateful for any suggestions - but please make them step-by-step so that even the less technically gifted can follow them !...

Henri
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Postby anders » Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:28 pm

Henri,

Unfortunately, 菊壼 in Chinese ju2kun3 will be, first chrysanthemum all right, but then not pot, but "an alley inside the imperial palace; corridors". I wrote the characters directly in this post without any additional software, just using what is included in Win XP Pro (or, AFIK, XP Home). I think that it still is possible to download from MS what's needed for earlier Windows versions. Anyway, considering that XP is soooo much more stable than those innumerable previous versions I've tried, it is good value to upgrade. If you don't like the "New Look", you can keep most of the look of, say, W ME or W 2k.

Today, I can't help with the Mac problem. I only use real computers. I have to admit, though, that this is exactly what Macs should be good at. Remember, they wrote in Arabic when MS still was way behind WordPerfect in handling åäö in a sensible way.

I'll try to catch my Bible Hebrew teacher. She uses a Mac setup for distance learning; the local Chinese Dept. and probably the Japanese, use PC's.
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Postby M. Henri Day » Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:28 am

anders wrote:Henri,

Unfortunately, 菊壼 in Chinese ju2kun3 will be, first chrysanthemum all right, but then not pot, but "an alley inside the imperial palace; corridors". ...

Today, I can't help with the Mac problem. I only use real computers. I have to admit, though, that this is exactly what Macs should be good at. Remember, they wrote in Arabic when MS still was way behind WordPerfect in handling åäö in a sensible way.

I'll try to catch my Bible Hebrew teacher. She uses a Mac setup for distance learning; the local Chinese Dept. and probably the Japanese, use PC's.


Thanks for your speedy reply, Anders ! Unfortunately, it's all too easy to confuse 壼 (Chinese kun3, Japanese (onyomi) kon ; passageway or corridor in a palace) with its near look-alike (one stroke less) 壺 (Chinese hu2, Japanese (kunyomi) tsubo, (onyomi) ko ; «pot»). It is the latter that is used in writing my daughter's name, which thus becomes (in Chinese) «Juhu»....

I, too, am convinced that Mac does provide a (relatively simple) way of dealing with this problem - it's just that I, like yourself, have no experience whatever with this type of computer and am therefore not in a postion to help my daughter. As I don't wish to risk hammering yet another nail in the coffin of auctoritas patris familias, I do hope that your teacher in Biblical Hebrew (she if anyone should appreciate the need to uphold the perogatives of said pater familias !) can come to my aid. If not, I shall have, as always, to rely on the knowledge - and the kindness -of my fellow Agorists!...

Henri

PS : As regards Windows XP, I presume that by the time the hospital here has got 'round to upgrading its system, XP will have long been obsolete. But when I get back to Stockholm, hopefully in June, I shall probably have occasion to purchase a new PC, and then I shall see to it that it is adequately equipped ! I look forward to being able to type Chinese and Japanese graphs directly from my keyboard ; the advanced stuff, like Arabic and Hebrew I leave to you intellectuals !...
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Postby Flaminius » Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:31 am

After a 3.5-day intensive seminar in Malaysia, I am reconfirming what a wide sway Chinese culture holds in the East Asia that manifests itself in the local versions of English. That is, in their accent.
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