TH substitution: S or T?

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Postby Brazilian dude » Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:04 pm

From The Big Book of Beastly Mispronunciations:

brothel BRAHT-ul (o as in hot, th as in thin).
Of the four variants for this word - the others being BRAWTH-ul (like broth + el), which is often listed, and BRATH-ul (th as in then) and BRAWTH-UL, which are now rarely listed - the one recommended above is by far most often preferred or given first by authorities past and present.


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JJ
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Postby JJ » Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:26 am

Hey, BD, is that a typo in your first pronunciation, the quote from the Big Book...? "BRAHT" or "BRATH"?

My feeble notion is that it's an unvoiced inter-dental fric, like "thin," and not "them." Probably it said that, and I missed it.

Haven't talked to anyone about phonetics since 1976. Lots of dust on my velar stops, dude.

Brothel around here might be heard as a "cat-house," probably from a Dutch word for Eng. purse. Don't know.

This is fun. Indulge me while I smile...

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Postby Brazilian dude » Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:47 am

My feeble notion is that it's an unvoiced inter-dental fric, like "thin," and not "them." Probably it said that, and I missed it.

It did.

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briandegnan
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affricatives with "tr" and "dr"

Postby briandegnan » Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:49 pm

The comment below about "tree" being a pronunciation substitute for "3" reminded me of something I realized at least in my own vocabulary. Though I've heard many people say "tree" for the number, I will use the dental fricatives θ & ð for the "th" sound. My realization comes in the form of how I pronounce (and have heard others near me [New England] area pronounce) the words "tree" or "dry" or any word whose initial letters are "tr" or "dr." I tend to run the two together and make an affricative in the beginning, unvoiced for "t-" and voiced for "d-." Examples:

"Tree" sounds like "chree [/ʧri/]" and dry sounds like "jry" [/ʤrai/]. Does anyone else pronounce these this way? It only seems to be when an initial t- or d- comes before an r. It seems almost pretentious or labored to me to pronounce them [/tri/] or [/drai/]; the two beginning sounds need to be pronounced independently and to have a very slight pause between them so as not to say the affricative sound.

Also compare "derive" with "drive." The first one, to me, is [/dǝraiv/], where the schwa "ǝ" is very barely pronounced, but still there is something between the [/d/] and the [/r/] sounds, whereas "drive" becomes [/ʤraiv/].

Any thoughts?
Brian Degnan

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Postby Apoclima » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:05 pm

Thanks, Degnan!

I have heard this 'ch'-'j' variation before 'r'.

And there are many sites which seem to not even having a listing for Connecticut at all. Bah.

I declare myself to be free of any accent whatsoever. It's the rest of you who speak odd. Even those of you who actually pronounce "tree" distinguishably from "chree". Which I'm told is mostly a local thing, but really, how else would you pronounce it? Some zonky weird way, perhaps.


Two random things

This is our chree for this year. I say 'chree' bc Kevin noticed, a few years ago, the way I pronounce 'tr: it comes out as 'chr'. Hmph. Never noticed that myself. I blame my mother.


The Christmas Chree

Just a couple of examples I found on the internet.

Apo
'Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination.' -Max Planck

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Postby Brazilian dude » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:28 pm

"Tree" sounds like "chree [/ʧri/]" and dry sounds like "jry" [/ʤrai/]. Does anyone else pronounce these this way?

Some Spanish speakers, particularly Chileans, pronounce tr like ch, so tren sounds like chen. The same phenomenon exists among Tuscans.

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Postby joshua » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:47 pm

Here in south east VA there is a town called Portsmouth, which you can sometimes hear pronounced as "Porch-muf"
This pronunciation is pretty rare, and you hear it more in the rural areas than in Porchmuff itself.

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Postby tcward » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:40 pm

Interesting, Joshua! That looks like an English influence...

And welcome to the Agora, by the way!

-Tim

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Postby joshua » Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:14 am

Thank you. I wonder about the English influence. The unvoiced affricate seems to pop up right often in strange places, i.e. "chree" (supra), which I hadn't thought of before, but seems to be part of my ideolect. In both cases (chree and porchmuf), we see a slide back, from the dental to the alveolear. Maybe it's just the old lazy tongue, not coming all the way up to the dental position.
On another, not completely unrelated point, there is supposed to be a old Portsmouth dialect in which "mouse" "out" and "house" rhyme with "close" (as in "not far" a/o/t "not open". Anyone know anything about it? All I can remember is an article in one of the local papers, maybe fifteen years ago, about how the dialect was dying out. The only other place I've ever come across that particular treatment of the /ou/ diphthong was in Maine, which is right far North of here. Thanks again.

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Postby tcward » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:53 pm

Funny you should mention that dialect. There is a pocket of old-time Richmonders that also pronounce "ou" that way. I've heard that the same residents of England populated eastern Canada -- can't recall exactly where, but for some reason the Halifax area comes to mind...?

-Tim

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Postby JJ » Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:49 pm

Josh & tc,
Not sure about the Portsmouth folk, but the Richmonders for sure (I lived in Petersburg a while), although the "ou" is less like the Canadian long "o" while more like the mid-western long "a." Make sense?

"...chased the mace ate of the hace..." for "chased the mouse out of the house."

Yeah, there's the Canu..Canu..Canadians that say "ote of the hoce" for "out of the house," but they don't seem to get down this way much...

mis dos centavos,
JJ

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Postby tcward » Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:31 am

Makes sense, JJ, but I think it's just the Southern accent version of the same phenomenon.

-Tim


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