TH substitution: S or T?

Flaminius
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Postby Flaminius » Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:18 am

The most Japanese-like version of the sentence is:
Ji ozer day I went wiz my brozer to ze brozel.

Even though "the" is expected to become "zi", the Japanese interference may not stop there.

NB. "Zi" is replaced by "ji" in Japanese morphology.

Phuramu.

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Apoclima
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Postby Apoclima » Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:15 pm

So, Flam, are you saying that Japanese do not distiguish (easily) between the voiced and the unvoiced in this contrastive pair?

Flam:
Ji ozer day I went wiz my brozer to ze brozel.


Why "ji" for "the" in one position and "ze" for 'the' in the other?

And no distinction between the [dh] of "brother" and the [th] of brothel?

BD, didn't make a distinction between "brother' and "brothel" either.

Remember we should be talking about someone who is all-but, if not fluent in English, yet retains a foreign accent, and not someone who is just learning to distinguish between the English phonemes.

Apo
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Postby Brazilian dude » Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:36 pm

De oder day I went wif/wit my broder to de brodel.


Yes, I did, but maybe brodeh-oo (I don't know how to represent this - in Spanish more or less like bródeu) would have been more accurate since we substitute u's for end of syllable l's.

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Postby Flaminius » Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:25 pm

Apoclima wrote:Flam:
Ji ozer day I went wiz my brozer to ze brozel.


Why "ji" for "the" in one position and "ze" for 'the' in the other?


The former "the" precedes a word beginning with a vowel. Therefore, it is pronounced /dhi/ in English, which a Japanese-influenced speaker would hear as [zi]. Because [zi] is an allophone of /ji/ (postalveolar affricate) in Japanese, a Japanese may realise English /dhi/ by [ji].


And no distinction between the [dh] of "brother" and the [th] of brothel?

Mea culpa. I though brothel has a voiced dental just like brother.

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Postby Brazilian dude » Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:49 am

Oh, now I understand the brother/brothel question. The thing is also that brothel can be either pronounced with a voiced or a voiceless th (I pronounce it voiceless). As I pointed out before, most Brazilians would pronounce it bródeu, maybe also influenced by the Portuguese word bordel (which we pronounce bordéu).

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tcward
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Postby tcward » Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:00 pm

Interesting...

bordello
1598, from It. variant of M.E. bordel "house of prostitution" (c.1305), from O.Fr. bordel "brothel," dim. of borde "hut made of planks," from Frank. *bord "board." Sense of "brothel" in Eng. first recorded 1850.

brothel
"bawdy house," c.1593, shortened from brothel-house, from brothel "prostitute" (1493), earlier "vile person" (of either sex), 14c., from O.E. broðen pp. of breoðan "deteriorate, go to ruin," from P.Gmc. *breuthanan, var. of *breutanan "to break." In 16c. brothel-house was confused with unrelated bordel (see bordello) and shifted meaning from a person to a place.

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Postby Andrew Dalby » Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:39 pm

In French these days, if you say 'c'est un bordel' you just mean 'it's a madhouse', 'it's chaos'.

Which seems a bit severe on the brothel-keepers or madams of this world: maybe one or two of them are efficient managers.

However, the same line of thinking gives rise to the English euphemism 'disorderly house' ...

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Postby Flaminius » Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:53 pm

What do we call a disorderly orderly?

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Stargzer
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Postby Stargzer » Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:49 am

Flaminius wrote:What do we call a disorderly orderly?


Jerry Lewis, of course!
Regards//Larry

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Postby M. Henri Day » Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:05 pm

Apoclima wrote:...

Just as a Norwegian chooses [t] and [d], when they would have a choice of their native [s] and [z]?

...


Not quite. Sibilants are unvoiced in modern Scandinavian languages (with the possible exception of Icelandic, or Farœic which retain, of course, traces of a much older phonetic system and about which I do know to little to comment). Thus when in Norwegian (or Swedish or Danish) one sees a «z», it is invariably pronounced [s]....

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JJ
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Postby JJ » Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:30 pm

Dam,
Youse guyse flat FLAME on the phonetics, an' stuff...(INTL Translation: "you are very good.")

I've been hangin' out, trolling as some say, and would simply kill to be snowed in at an Alpine lodge with a dozen or so of Y'ALL, along with some coldbeer. (That's one word in Texas.)

Meanwhile, I'll continue to troll, y'all continue to pick it apart, and one day I'll chime in. Not at the moment, however, since I'm a bit "indisposed" (Ukr: Gorilka)and would likely say something I'd later egret. Regress. Regret.

Que les vaya bien, amigos... (May it go well with you)

JJ

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Postby Brazilian dude » Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:33 pm

Am I seeing double or is JJ an updated version of J on the other forum?

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Postby KatyBr » Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:56 pm

naw a bilious canine wouldn't say as much.

Kt

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Stargzer
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Postby Stargzer » Sun Jan 22, 2006 8:26 pm

JJ wrote:Dam,
Youse guyse flat FLAME on the phonetics, an' stuff...(INTL Translation: "you are very good.")

I've been hangin' out, trolling as some say, and would simply kill to be snowed in at an Alpine lodge with a dozen or so of Y'ALL, along with some coldbeer. (That's one word in Texas.)


Welcome, JJ! Hope that's some good Belgian beer you're talking about. I'm working on a large bottle at the moment (750 ml, i. e., "a fifth of beer") that's 9% alcohol by volume. "The one beer to have when you're having only one!"

Meanwhile, I'll continue to troll, y'all continue to pick it apart, and one day I'll chime in. Not at the moment, however, since I'm a bit "indisposed" (Ukr: Gorilka)and would likely say something I'd later egret. Regress. Regret.

Que les vaya bien, amigos... (May it go well with you)

JJ


Puns are quite acceptable here, JJ. Stick around, I hope you enjoy it here.
Regards//Larry



"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."

-- Attributed to Richard Henry Lee

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Apoclima
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Postby Apoclima » Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:06 pm

Henri:
Sibilants are unvoiced in modern Scandinavian languages....


Thank you, Henri! I hadn't ever noticed this before!

Swedish and Norwegian

And, BD, I have never heard "brothel" pronounced with a voiced dental fricative, (or replaced by a voiced labio-dental fricative [v] either).

broth·el (brŏth'əl, brô'thəl) pronunciation
n.

A house of prostitution.

[Short for brothel-house, from Middle English brothel, prostitute, from brothen, past participle of brethen, to go to ruin, from Old English brēothan, to decay.]


brothel

Apo
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