Postpositive positioning can have either a combinatory or segregatory meaning. In the following, they have the latter meaning, due to the conjunction or:
The presence of someone else in my house, boy or girl, was a scary thought.
I think this is the best option in any context, formal or informal.
1) Do you think the bold words are a reduced phrase, with the words 'whether it be/is' ellided?
Common sense confirms the meaning, combinatory or segregatory.
2) Why do you think the sentence directly above feels too reduced (assuming you agree)--as though it needs 'be it' or 'whether it be' before it, or possibly needs to be in predicative position (in the form of a relative clause: "which is either combinatory...")
Sorry to ask such a lengthy question!
Contd. Ellipsis
Contd. Ellipsis
What you see, yet can not see over, is as good as infinite. ~Thomas Carlyle
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- Great Grand Panjandrum
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I think you could make a stronger case for the first sentence being reduced than the second. Since “boy or girl” does not modify the noun preceding it, one tends to mentally insert “whether it be” or something similar into the sentence.Postpositive positioning can have either a combinatory or segregatory meaning. In the following, they have the latter meaning, due to the conjunction or:
The presence of someone else in my house, boy or girl, was a scary thought.
I think this is the best option in any context, formal or informal.
1) Do you think the bold words are a reduced phrase, with the words 'whether it be/is' ellided?
In the second case, “formal or informal” could easily be considered simple adjectival modifiers of the word “context.”
In this sentence, although the modifiers follow the noun to which they are attached, I find myself rereading the sentence to make sure that “combinatory” and “segregatory” do indeed modify “meaning.” It would be clearer if the sentence read …“meaning, which is either….”Common sense confirms the meaning, combinatory or segregatory.
2) Why do you think the sentence directly above feels too reduced (assuming you agree)--as though it needs 'be it' or 'whether it be' before it, or possibly needs to be in predicative position (in the form of a relative clause: "which is either combinatory...")
Does that mean that there is a reduced clause? Chomsky would contend that most sentences are reduced (I bought the blue car = I bought the car + the car was blue).
It all depends on where you draw the line on reduction versus simple modification.
Ars longa, vita brevis
I agree, Sap. Thanks for your post. I'm especially impressed how you managed not to waffle, as is so easy when discussing something so arbitrary.
The question was based on a similar topic I was reading, and partaking in, about the correlative conjunction 'both...and.'
The topic discussed the different meanings it can have when placed after the noun to which it's attached.
If it is in postpositive position, for instance, the meaning can be segregatory or combinatory; the meaning is inferred by the context, which should be easy enough.
Pupils, both honest and clever, pass exams with flying colours.
This could be either combinatory or segregatory.
If we move this phrase to predicative position, however, the meaning can only be combinatory:
Pupils, who are both honest and clever, pass exams with flying colours.
I just thought it was quite an interesting conversation, don't you think (assuming you agree with this, of course)?
The question was based on a similar topic I was reading, and partaking in, about the correlative conjunction 'both...and.'
The topic discussed the different meanings it can have when placed after the noun to which it's attached.
If it is in postpositive position, for instance, the meaning can be segregatory or combinatory; the meaning is inferred by the context, which should be easy enough.
Pupils, both honest and clever, pass exams with flying colours.
This could be either combinatory or segregatory.
If we move this phrase to predicative position, however, the meaning can only be combinatory:
Pupils, who are both honest and clever, pass exams with flying colours.
I just thought it was quite an interesting conversation, don't you think (assuming you agree with this, of course)?
What you see, yet can not see over, is as good as infinite. ~Thomas Carlyle
I do find these types of verbal gymnastics fascinating.Pupils, both honest and clever, pass exams with flying colours.
Pupils, who are both honest and clever, pass exams with flying colours.
For example, if you wrote "Both honest and clever students pass exams with flying colors [here, we pass exams without the u]," the placement of "honest and clever" suggests two very different student groups.
A nudge here, an adjustment there, and you have very different meanings.
No wonder people often misinterpret what they read!
Ars longa, vita brevis
I do find these types of verbal gymnastics fascinating.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. Some--including Luke--may find us rather odd for showing an interest in this, so we must unite, stick together, and ignore passing comments about our unusual interests. I have the shield. You can hold sword.
What you see, yet can not see over, is as good as infinite. ~Thomas Carlyle
- Slava
- Great Grand Panjandrum
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Who've you got riding shotgun?I do find these types of verbal gymnastics fascinating.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. Some--including Luke--may find us rather odd for showing an interest in this, so we must unite, stick together, and ignore passing comments about our unusual interests. I have the shield. You can hold sword.
Life is like playing chess with chessmen who each have thoughts and feelings and motives of their own.
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- Great Grand Panjandrum
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